Baptism symbol only ?

Atwood · Nov 2, 2014

Trying to impose love into how a man gets saved doesn't work, as scripture doesn't teach it, & since man cannot love until He is saved. Love is the fruit of the Spirit. This discussion is not about the things a man should do; this discussion is about how to get saved. And that is ever only by faith on man's part.

We are not obsessing on rare verses which demand some explanation (does someone really think that women can be salvation for having a baby?);
we are focusing upon the repeated & overwhelming testimony of the Lord in His word, how salvation is offered over & over for faith/believing. The Savior must be trusted.

THE PASTORAL EPISTLES PROCLAIM SALVATION ALONE BY FAITH

1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

posthuman · Nov 2, 2014

Atwood said:

We love because he first loved us.
(1 John 4:19)

His love is the primary thing and the origin. our love is but the reflection of His

For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever!
Amen.
(Romans 11:36)

SoulWeaver · Nov 2, 2014

Atwood I nowhere disagreed with it. Everything begins with faith and faith is the requirement for salvation. Love and works of love are the fruits of it. I just wish you werent so irritated about it. No need to post these giant letters and so on.
P.S. and yes love is key

Atwood · Nov 2, 2014

It is the extremely high number of passages which endorse faith as the only human act required for salvation -- so high & so often repeated that it rules out anything else as essential to salvation, including both sprinkling & immersion in water.

HEBREWS JUMPS ON THE BAND-WAGON: SALVATION SOLEY FOR FAITH

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

SoulWeaver · Nov 2, 2014

I was sprinkled as a baby (I come from a Christian Orthodox country). Of COURSE that did not make me a Christian, although it might have counted before God as a prayer for me or something because of the intent of my parents.

I was unbeliever until my twenties.
I came to Jesus by faith and am not yet baptized in water by submerging (I became a non-denominational after I prayed to Jesus to show me the right doctrine and He showed me that no church on Earth has a perfect doctrine and that I should follow HIM and be in His church). I still intend to do it some day, it would be a beautiful experience, and also because Jesus said to do it. There must be a good reason, although I dont believe that literal dipping into the water is a salvation requirement. Flesh profits nothing: it is all about faith in God... Like when Jesus preached at Capernaum that people should eat His flesh and blood and people turned away, because they didnt understand the parable. I believe in the same fashion that baptism is a parable of old man dying and new man being born. And yes the famous thief at the cross.
I know I am saved because of the Holy Spirit producing fruit in my life, I have changed my ways and it is a process of growth that will continue until my death.

Atwood · Nov 2, 2014

SoulWeaver said:

Weaver, join the club! I also was sprinkled as a baby! I also was immersed at 9 years of age when I "joined the church" without being saved. But I thought the orthodox immersed babies.

The Lord is not a legalist! What people do in their hearts He notices.

I was unbeliever until late in my 19th year.

It was a year or two after I was saved that I got baptized -- and that not really for a good reason, but because some (idiot) preacher at a church I wished to join seemed to think someone needed to be baptized by a preacher in his denomination for it to be valid. Getting baptized didn't cross my mind until that came up -- probably because I had been dunked at 9 before I was saved.

In the denomination in which I was dunked at 9, I walked forward at the invitation to join the church (nothing about salvation), I was asked if I believed that Jesus was the Son of God; I said yes, in about a week I was taken to a river to be baptized. But in that denomination I don't recall any preacher ever saying anything about salvation or being saved; nor giving the reason why Christ died on the cross. It was mostly about joining the church, taking communion, trying to practice the Teachings of Jesus. I think that is pretty typical of mainline protestantism -- or they sprinkle the baby, then run the child through confirmation classes later (both practices alien to scripture).

Yes, it is a beautiful way to confess your faith in the Lord Jesus who died, was buried, & rose. History doesn't prove doctrine, but it does appear that in NT times, men got immersed in water very soon after they trusted Christ as Savior, even immediately after. So I think that is best.

Assurance of salvation is something a little different from perseverance in salvation. As you say, salvation is by grace through faith. We hear the gospel, Believe & be saved. So we take God at His word & depend on the Savior. We may do this as we call on His name for salvation. After we trust Christ, part of our assurance does come from fruit (by their fruit you shall know them; do we love the brethren, etc., as 1 John says.

Dogknox · Nov 2, 2014

SoulWeaver said:

I reply: Good to meet you!

QUESTION who said it was a PARABLE! NOT Jesus!!

If you were on an island with just the bible no one to teach you anything different, you would come off the island believing the Flesh of Jesus is REAL FOOD because this is written in the bible!

The ONLY way you can believe, "it is a Parable" is you have placed your TRUST and FAITH is the persons that taught you this lie of "Being just a Parable"!

SoulWeaver God is clear.. This is his word.. John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood resides in me, and I in him.

CHRISTIANS have ALWAYS taught the flesh of Jesus is real food!!
SoulWeaver Eating the flesh of Jesus, is what makes Christians; Christians >>They are BELIEVERS<< They have FAITH IN Jesus!! NOT..
Not in the teaching of MEN, who reject Jesus words!!

Ignatius of Antioch is a CHRISTIAN!! Note the early date!
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr is another CHRISTIAN!! Christians believe Jesus' words! They KNOW God cannot mislead or LIE!
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

SoulWeaver · Nov 2, 2014

I nowhere said God lied, or that we shouldnt be partaking in His flesh and blood. Please do not impart to me the words I've never said. If calling something a parable is equivalent to calling it a lie, then all these parables Jesus told to the public were lies, according to what you just said.
You have requested the proof from the Scriptures, who said that it was a parable. Here it is:
John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
And further, regarding the understanding of it:
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing...
Also:
Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (I think that one should be enough alone.)
Hard sayings are the same as "hard sentences" appearing in Daniel 5:12. It means a prophetic uttering that Holy Spirit helps one open, in other words - a parable.

The fact that someone was a martyr does not nececcarily mean that they held a perfect doctrine. The proof is that you have people who died for Jesus' sake in all kinds of denominations. And doctrines/denominations cannot save. Only Jesus can. There is no man or earthly church who has it all figured out. God is much bigger than our little box. When I asked God to show me the right church to go to and prayed in faith that He would point me to the right denomination or congregation, He said into my heart that no church is spotless except HIS church which is in Heaven. I've said this to Catholics before and they were all yes, this is true, but...but...but, but they cannot answer to that because it is the Truth.

I know Jesus and Jesus knows me. You might yell. But it is not you who is angry and yelling but the religious demon who has you in bondage to doctrines of men... and it cannot stand that many have escaped him. Did you notice that it is you who cites teachings of men. We have all been promised: you shall know the truth and the TRUTH shall set you FREE... I am free in Jesus. I claim the same for you in Jesus name, God's will be done... amen, for the glory of God. I will not post further or argue with you because it would be fruitless - you be blessed.

PACEMAKER · Nov 3, 2014

Atwood said:

People may object, well what about this, & what about that; frequently quoting passages where salvation is not even the topic.

But the fact remains that so many, many places in scripture salvation is offered to man just for believing, nothing else added. Thus Water can be no more than a symbol. I can see how sprinklers may fail to see the symbol. But those who rightly translate baptize as immerse should see the symbol of the Savior's death, burial, and resurrection.

It is the enormity of the evidence which overwhelms the mind with the truth, though a hard heart may wish to cling to the idol of water as Savior.

GALATIANS PROCLAIMS SALVATION ALONE BY FAITH
(NOTHING ADDED)

GAL 2
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus[/B], that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or
by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO MARY, NO POPE]

Atwood.

WOW I have lost count on the Number of verses that say

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

They Must Be Hundreds......

That Comes from Gods Word
The Scriptures..

God said It
I am Sure that HE Meant
What HE Said...

newbirth · Nov 3, 2014

posthuman said:

There is no doubt that Christ loves us......the question is do we love him...we cannot say we love him if our obedience is only to prove our faith in him.....as some say
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.(obedience)

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.(obedience)

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. (obedience)

1 John 4:11
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.(obedience)
1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.(obedience)

middle-texan · Nov 3, 2014

Atwood said:

Wait, wait, wait - if faith is a human act, doesn't that make it a 'work'?

Just 2 points: #1: Faith is not an 'act' or 'work' - it is defined in Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the evidence of what is hoped for, and the assurance if what is not seen.'

#2: Baptism is not an 'act' or 'work' - it is done/performed by someone other than the one being baptized. When I was baptized, I did nothing, but baptism was done to me.

middle-texan · Nov 3, 2014

Agree with Hoffco - with the scriptural example being that of Cornelius, the centurion of Acts 10. He was more than just a good man, he feared God, prayed fervently and regularly, and gave to the poor - but he was a lost sinner until he heard the gospel story of Jesus Christ and obeyed that gospel by turning his life over to Christ, and was baptized for the remission of his sins. And yes - God chose to give his Holy Spirit to Cornelius before he was obedient to the gospel. God gives of the Spirit as He wills, and it is not for us to question.

tylerbones1313 · Nov 3, 2014

Originally Posted by Kerry

Did David do right? Did Abraham do right? did Elijah do right? Did Paul struggle with sin? was Peter Baptized in water? was John Baptized in water? were of the 12 baptized in water?.

() inside these is where I explain scripture.

Acts 2: [SUP]36 [/SUP]Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (They were asking what to do to be saved!!)
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (And is a conjunction joining repentance and baptism together to remit sins!!)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. (There on that day of Pentecost were Peter, John and the rest of the disciples and believe me they gladly received his word and this scripture says those that gladly received were baptized!!!)

tylerbones1313 · Nov 3, 2014

Your last line is what sparks me to write a reply. I can't honestly bring myself to believe in Death Bed Repentance. I shot and killed hundreds of people, stomped on innocent babies until they were no longer alive and burned down villages, but God I am about to die on my death bed please forgive me and save me. There is no passage anywhere that would uphold the faith and hope of such people. What makes one think he can be stubborn and rebellious to God's laws all his life and at the last minute repent and God will accept him?

I think everyone should read this book it explains a lot. http://www.apostolic-voice.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/the-oneness-of-god.pdf

tylerbones1313 · Nov 3, 2014

The above link a tried to post is not working right just search for oneness of god pdf .

SoulWeaver · Nov 3, 2014

tylerbones1313 said:

[h=1]Matthew 20:1-16 King James Version (KJV)[/h] 1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

[SUP]16 [/SUP]So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

SoulWeaver · Nov 3, 2014

It is very noteworthy that they started working at 11th hour, meaning that they were in disobedience and rebellion (11) during their lives.

tylerbones1313 · Nov 3, 2014

John 9 31Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Those who openly practice and willfully sin God will not hear them. When we come to God we do so because we are convicted of our sins and are truly sorry and don't want to willfully sin. But for those on their death bed who never served God a day in their lives are only repenting out of fear of death not because they are truly sorry for their sins. They don't believe in Hell until it is knocking on their doorstep.

SoulWeaver · Nov 3, 2014

I am sure that God is able to sort it out.
But your understanding of sin is one of man. I used to think that way. But God's thoughts are not our thoughts.
We tend to think some sins are "bigger" and some are "smaller". This is human understanding. How many of us have committed murder by feeling hatred towards anybody. Jesus said that before God our thoughts count the same as the deed.
The way you talk implies that we are somehow better than these people because they sinned "more" or "longer" than us. But in reality, there are only two categories. Left and right. God does not make degrees in sinning, who sinned less and who sinned more. They were crucifying Him and He said "forgive them Father". Because it is His everlasting love that transforms. Repentance is a gift from God. We do not repent on our own.
Men are vessels for the temple of His body. What does it matter to Him if the cup is a bit dirty or very dirty? It is in both cases defiled and unfit for the temple. Only one sin renders us unacceptable to the most holy God, and the result is the same as 1000 sins. Adam and Eve just managed to eat what they shouldnt, it was only one act and they rendered themselves unworthy.
Are you really saying that, thinking of someone you loved very much, that you wouldnt want them to be forgiven if they repented on their deathbed, or that they should die because it is somehow "right".
Peace to you, and I honestly hope God speaks to you on this matter.

MsSpratt · Nov 3, 2014

no.............

Baptism symbol only ?

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