Baptism symbol only ?

Atwood · Nov 4, 2014

So to be sure of your salvation, Dog, you need to make sure you are a woman; if not, go see a surgeon.

As I said, I agree with the Golden Mouthed "Church Father," Chrysostom who interpreted that
it is the race of women meant, & not any particular woman:

“The woman,” he says, “being deceived was in transgression.” What woman? Eve. Shall she then be saved by child-bearing? He does not say that, but, the race of women shall be saved. Was not it then involved in transgression? Yes, it was, still Eve transgressed, but the whole sex shall be saved, notwithstanding, “by childbearing.”

And such being the case, the meaning cannot be that the race of women as a whole go to Heaven (leaving out men!). But the function of woman is preserved through child bearing.

Authority to teach comes from 2 things:
1) the anointing that all Christians have in 1 John,
and
2) the Spriitual gift of teaching which the Lord gives to some Christians.

But at any case, all are welcome to do as the Noble Bereans, search the scriptures to see if any thing is so.

The Scripture is not man made, but theopneustos:

IGNORE NOT NOR SCOFF AT THE OFFER THE LORD MAKES TO YOU OF FREE SALVATION:

Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO BRATS, NO PAPACY]

Eph 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast
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Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
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Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
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1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
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2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
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Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
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Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
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Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
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Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
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1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
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1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
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1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rev 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father . . . . 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.
[NO WORKS, NO BRATS, NO RCC, NO WATER]

Dogknox · Nov 4, 2014

What you say makes no sense!!

FIRST: Chrysostom is a CATHOLIC BISHOP!!!

SCRIPTURES ALONE tell you.. "Woman are saved by CHILDBEARING!"

Your words.. I agree with the Golden Mouthed "Church Father," Chrysostom!!

God tells you.. word for word.. "Woman are saved by CHILDBEARING!"

Atwood Looks to me you reject the "Scriptures ALONE" when convenient!!

Funny how you flip and flop like a slimy fish when caught!!!

Atwood · Nov 4, 2014

Dogknox said:

Both Scripture & Chrysostom make sense; you do not.

So, since you are not a catholic, you don't respect his interp; understandable.

“The woman,” he says, “being deceived was in transgression.” What woman? Eve. Shall she then be saved by child-bearing? He does not say that, but, the race of women shall be saved. Was not it then involved in transgression? Yes, it was, still Eve transgressed, but the whole sex shall be saved, notwithstanding, “by childbearing.”

And such being the case, the meaning cannot be that the race of women as a whole go to Heaven (leaving out men!). But the function of woman is preserved through child bearing.

God tells you.. word for word [FALSE!]..

Click to expand...

Simply false. That is not word-for-word.
If you are going word-for-word, the word "woman" does not occur in the verse:

σωθήσεται δὲ διὰ τῆς τεκνογονίας. There is no expressed subject: "He/she/it shall be preserved but through the childbearing."

(Of course in English, we cannot put but where Greek does, postpostive).

Now since you made a false claim about scripture, can you man-up & admit it?

And why don't you believe God's Word on salvation, as over & over it is offered just for belief/faith/trust in the Savior???

Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
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1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
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John 3:14-18
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that
whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

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John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
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JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
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Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 16:31a
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, . . . .
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.
[NO WORKS, NO BRATS, NO RCC, NO WATER]

[/FONT]

Dogknox · Nov 4, 2014

Atwood said:

Atwood you took Chrysostom words out of CONTEXT!! You have placed the salvation of your soul in your TEACHERS NOT in the scriptures! Clearly your TEACHERS have TWISTED the truth and again you have FALLEN for a lie!

Chrysostom TEACHING>>>> None the less salvation is conditioned by perseverance!!!!
MEN AND WOMEN IN THE HOUSE(HOLD) OF GOD. CHRYSOSTOM’S HOMILIES ON 1 TIM 2,8-15

In spite of the lapse of the whole female sex, there is hope for salvation. Two remarks are needed with respect to this passage.First, the text of 1 Tim 2,15 itself is some what ambiguous because of the implicit subject, and because of the range of meanings of
sw, |zw
and
dia,
.Thus it is often debated whether salvation through childbearing refers to the saving birth of Christ, or to childbearing as instrumental to women’s salvation, possibly by means of birth pangs, or again to the rescue from the dangers accompanying parturition.
56
Chrysostom appropriately reads the text as referring to women’s salvation by means of childbearing and rearing. Second, from the long exhortation to parents it will become obvious that Chrysostom places a great emphasis on the responsible task of educating children, more than on the biological aspect of birth giving

Before entering the topic of education, Chrysostom attempts to reject two potential objections. Why are women not saved rather by means of their personal virtues?And if childbearing is the way of women’s salvation, are virgins or women who can (no longer) bear children (the barren and the widows) doomed? These ques-tions are all the more important, as Chrysostom strongly supports virginity and dis-approves remarriage. The answer is nonetheless obscure. He refers to childbearing as a consolation (
paramuqi, a
) given by God to the fallen female sex. Childbearing be longs to the order of nature (
th/jfu,sewj
),but not only this is bestowed by God, but also the gift of child rearing. None the less salvation is conditioned by perseverance
57
in faith and love and holiness, according to modesty, that is, when women preserve
their children in love and purity.
58
Thus Chrysostom indicates that the biological act of birth giving is not an instrument of salvation in itself, but only when both mother and child live a virtuous life. Moreover, children’s perseverance in virtue is a sign of the woman’s virtue, since a wicked mother cannot raise upright children. Con-sequently reward is not promised to any woman, but to the virtuous. Chrysostom thus answers the objection concerning salvation by means of childbearing instead of personal virtue. But is this an answer to the other objection, regarding the salvation of virgins and other women who do not have children? It is possible, but not explicitly stated, that by defining childbearing as belonging to nature, Chrysostom suggests that motherhood is the regular way of salvation, which none the less gives hope for salvation only when women persevere in virtue and keep their children on this path. Thus continuing in faith and love becomes more important than biological motherhood itself. Yet, Chrysostom does not answer clearly the question regarding the salvation of women who do not bear children.Chrysostom explicitly interprets the faithful saying as reinforcement of the previous clause, referring to personal virtue as precondition of both parents success in educating children,
In spite of the lapse of the whole female sex, there is hope for salvation. Two remarks are needed with respect to this passage. First, the text of 1 Tim 2,15 itself is somewhat ambiguous because of the implicit subject, and because of the range of meanings of
sw, |zw
and
dia,
. Thus it is often debated whether salvation through childbearing refers to the saving birth of Christ, or to childbearing as instrumental to women’s salvation, possibly by means of birth pangs, or again to the rescue from the dangers accompanying parturition.
56
Chrysostom appropriately reads the text as referring to women’s salvation by means of childbearing and rearing. Second, from the long exhortation to parents it will become obvious that Chrysostom places a great emphasis on the responsible task of educating children, more than on the biological aspect of birth giving

Atwood · Nov 4, 2014

Dogknox said:

You quoted that; do you agree with it? I'll bet that the RCC commentaries disagree on what it means.

Do you agree with your own statement (unacknowledged quote?).
It says "obscure." If obscure, then you don't start there to develop your doctrine of salvation.
And if the Golden Mouth supports virginity, he cannot be intepreting your obscure verse to mean that child-bearing is essential to salvation. Now if you want to develop Chrysostom's doctrine of salvation, you will have to quote him, not some interpreter of him. And really it is irrelevant, as Chrysostom was not a prophet, and his words are not infallible scripture.

The point is that your obscure passage does not speak about how an individual human being is saved or what is essential to salvation. Child-bearing is not essential to salvation; and neither the Bible nor any denomination I know of teaches that except perhaps the Mormans, who believe in eternal pregnancy of women, hatching them on in the afterlife -- so I understand.

The Bible is clear that the only MUST I DO, the only essential is to believe/have faith/trust the Savior. Anything else is an idol; thus repent of your idolatry, and put your full faith & trust in the crucified Son of God.

Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved.

For by grace you have been saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves,
not of works lest anyone should boast.

Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 3:14-18
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that
whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 16:31a
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, . . . .
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Atwood · Nov 4, 2014

I replied to Dog(non-John)Knox, but somehow I got the quote system befouled. It should have read like this at the top:

15 But women shall be preserved through the bearing of children - NASB
(NASB italicizes "women" because the word is not in the Greek text).

You seem to wish to change the subject. I did not post on what Chrysostom's doctrine of salvation was, but on what his interpretation of the obscure 1 Tim 2:15. It is clear that Chrysostom takes the passage to refer to women as a race, as a group. And that is the point.

Now from where did you get your commentary on Chrysostom from? Are you pasting without quotes & without attribution?

First we discuss what 1 Tim 2:15 means, then we go to Chrysostom to find his interpretation; now you want to go to an interpreter of the interpreter! ROFL. It is irrelevant. You don't show that I took anything out of context.

Chrysostom commented:

I said I agreed with his interpretation that it is the group of women, which is rendered "the race of women" above. That's all I say from the Golden Mouth.

And such being the case, the meaning cannot be that the race of women as a whole go to Heaven (leaving out men!). But the function of woman is preserved through child bearing.

That makes sense of an obscure passage. Note that what Dog posted (from an unacknowledged source?) says:

Dog seems to have had some defect in his paste with sw & lzw. But his source seems to mean that the word translated "save" sōzō has a range of meanings, leading to disputed translation. I don't know what lzw means, but dia is the Greek preposition translated through, which might mean:
1) agent, like saved through faith, or
2) associated circumstances, like "she had great labor pains & almost lost the baby, but was saved through those difficulties by an great doctor." And that is one interpretation, that women are saved through the difficulties of childbirth, not that the difficulties save the woman, but she is saved as she goes through the difficulties.

At any rate, this one obscure verse is not a verse from which to dogmatize on soteriology. Where one starts with are the many times repeated offer of salvation just for believing/faith/trust in the Savior.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

[NO WORKS, N0 RCC, NO BRATS, NO WATER]

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Statements like "whosoever believes, " all them who believe," "everyone who believes," rule out any essential addition to believing for salvation.

23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
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6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down

or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO POPE, NO BRATS]

Atwood · Nov 4, 2014

Shall we say that water immersion is not just a symbol, since it actually does get the hair wet.

Now should we start a thread on women getting immersed by wearing a plastic shower cap to keep the hair from getting wet?

tylerbones1313 · Nov 4, 2014

John 13 [SUP]33 [/SUP]Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

There seems to be an awful lot of hating around here. This is supposed to be a debate with love not an argument with hate.

If we don't show love one to another we are not Christ's disciples. Only God knows the intents of the heart and able to discern.

Dogknox · Nov 4, 2014

Atwood Your words.. The Bible is clear that the only MUST I DO, the only essential is to believe/have faith/trust the Savior.

I reply: Post the scripture that say: Faith ALONE saves! I will expect the scripture chapter and verse in your next post!!!

Jesus said “NOT BY FAITH ALONE”! James 2

NOTE: Believing in Jesus, having faith in Jesus, can only be having faith in the words of Jesus!
The scriptures tell you:You reject Jesus by not accepting his words!

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Atwood The bible is clear as you point out....Trusting in Jesus will give eternal life!

WORDS OF JESUS>> Luke 10:25
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked,“what must I do to inherit eternal life?
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered,“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Atwood .
Words of Jesus: YOU MUST LOVE, to have eternal life!!
If you trust Jesus you will believe his words >YOU MUST LOVE<!

You reject Jesus by not accepting his words!

Atwood
Words of Jesus: Matthew 25 The Sheep are RIGHTEOUS they go to heaven because of their ACTIONS>They GAVE to Jesus!
If you trust Jesus you will believe his words >YOU MUST LOVE<!

Atwood
There are NO words of Jesus that say “You enter by Faith ALONE”!

There are NO words of Jesus that say “You enter by Faith ALONE”because Jesus never said this teaching “Martin Luther made the teaching SIXTEEN HUNDRED Years AFTER Jesus!”

Words of Jesus: You MUST eat my flesh to have ETERNAL LIFE!
Words of Jesus: My flesh is real food!
Words of Jesus: If you do NOT eat my flesh you have NO LIFE in you!

Atwood You reject Jesus by not accepting his words!

Just in case you missed it I will say it again>> Post the scriptures saying "Faith ALONE saves!" I will expect the scripture proof from you: Chapter and verse in your next post!!!

tylerbones1313 · Nov 4, 2014

PACEMAKER said:

God saved the thief on the cross under the Old Testament and took him to Hell, Abraham's Bosom, Paradise or Sheol which ever word you prefer to use. Matthew 28:19 is where Jesus instituted the New Testament salvation after he was risen from the dead. Not the I'm subscribing to the Trinitarian formula for baptism for I believe that baptism should be done in Jesus' Name only.

Dogknox · Nov 4, 2014

tylerbones1313 said:

I reply: You are wrong! The early apostolic Fathers baptized in the name of the trinity! They baptized to save!

The early Church Apostolic Fathers baptized in the name of GOD!
GO: In the name of the father; with all the AUTHORITY of the father!
GO: In the name of the son; with all the AUTHORITY of the son!
GO: In the name of the Holy Spirit; with all the AUTHORITY of the Holy Spirit>> Make disciples BAPTIZING!!

FACT: Baptism makes DISCIPLES!
FACT: Disciples are Jesus' brothers!
FACT: If Jesus is your brother then God would be your Father!
FACT: If you are a DISCIPLE then God would be your Father!

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing

Baptism makes DISCIPLES: make disciples of all nations, baptizing

Dogknox · Nov 4, 2014

Every single time you read in the scriptures "They were BAPTIZED" you can be sure the baptism was done by the CHURCH!

Church always baptizes with WATER!
Only Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit, only God can send the Holy Spirit!

THINK: Being baptized in the name of Jesus means; The Church with the AUTHORITY of Jesus, speaking for Jesus, representing Jesus, being Agent for Jesus, baptized them>> With WATER!

Water and Spirit saves.. Jesus tells us so...5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

NOT "Spirit ALONE"! "WATER AND (PLUS ALSO) SPIRIT!

The Bride and the Groom re-FORM the person into the new form of God' child>> Sinless, WASHED CLEANSED BY THE WATERS OF BAPTISM! Re-born, re-formed into a new form, the form of God' child!

The Catholic has a MOTHER; The CHURCH!
The Catholic has a Father; God.. it takes TWO, TWO, TWO parents not just one parent to form a child!
Anyone who does NOT have a mother, cannot be born or even Re-Born, they cannot have a father without a mother! EVEN...
Even Jesus had a mother!

The protesting man, the man with roots to the "de-formers" are motherless! They claim God is their father but no father can gain the title "Father" until a MOTHER gives birth! They are Motherless so they MUST be fatherless also!
I point out: Satan is without a father and mother, worms are also motherless, fatherless!
The Muslims have a belief it goes like this.. "the next Anti-Christ will be born of a father only!" Seems they may be right.. All those in the great PROTEST are motherless claiming to have only a Father!

PACEMAKER · Nov 5, 2014

tylerbones1313 said:

Tyler WHY do You ADD words to Scriptures ????
You said "took him to Hell, Abraham's Bosom, Paradise or Sheol
which ever word you prefer to use."

Question: "What is paradise? Is it different than Heaven?"

Answer: Paradise is a place of blessing where the righteous go after death. The word paradise is usually used as a synonym for “heaven”
(Revelation 2:7).

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the PARADISE of God.’

When Jesus was dying on the cross and one
of the thieves being crucified with Him
asked Him for mercy,
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth,
today you will be with me in paradise”

You said took him to Hell, Abraham's Bosom, Paradise or Sheol
which ever word you prefer to use.

Now... What Word did Jesus Use PARADISE

(Luke 23:43).
Jesus knew that His death was imminent
and that He would soon be in heaven
with His Father.

Therefore, Jesus used “paradise”
as a synonym for “heaven.”

The apostle Paul wrote of someone (probably himself)
who “was caught up to paradise” (2 Corinthians 12:4).

In this context, paradise obviously refers to heaven.

4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things,
things that no one is permitted to tell.

There has always been a separation of believers
and unbelievers after death

(Luke 16:19-31).

The righteous have always gone to paradise;
the wicked have always gone to hell.

For right now, both paradise and hell
are “temporary holding places”
until the day when Jesus Christ comes back
to judge the world based on whether
or not individuals have believed in Him.

The first resurrection is of believers who
will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ
to receive rewards based on meritorious
service to Him.

The second resurrection will be that of unbelievers
who will stand before
the Great White Throne Judgment of God.
At that point, all will be sent to
their eternal destination—
the wicked to the lake of fire
(Revelation 20:11-15),
and the righteous to a new heaven
and a new earth
(Revelation 21—22).

Tyler,, Can you admit that you are Wrong about what you said
About Jesus Dying FIRST
This Scripture CONTRADICTS your statement about the Thief dying before Jesus..

John 19:32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first,
and of the other who had been crucified with him.

33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead,

they did not break his legs.
34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear,
and at once there came out blood and water.

Again the thief was Saved and Went to Heaven

With OUT Being "water baptized"

After Christ Death

And Under the New Covenant.....

tylerbones1313 · Nov 5, 2014

We know that Jesus Christ went “into the lower parts of the earth” (Eph. 4:9), that is to Sheol/Hades, “in the heart of the earth,” for three days and nights while his body was in the grave (Mat. 12:40). The Lord Jesus told the repentant thief that he would join Him in Paradise that same day (Lk. 23:42,43). This tells us that Paradise was located in Sheol/Hades at that time. We believe that this was the same place referred to as Abraham’s Bosom in Luke 16. However, after Jesus Christ rose from the dead He ascended to the Father, taking the saints who were in Abraham’s Bosom to heaven with Him. Thus, He took “captivity captive” (see Eph. 4:8-10). (https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/hell-sheol-hades-paradise-and-the-grave/)

Hell has two compartments one is the burning side of it and the other is where the righteous dead reside awaiting the Messiah to finish his work. Until God purchased His Church with His blood satan had legal right to hold us bond in that place. But when He died he set the captives free and that place has been empty ever since. After His resurrection all those righteous dead go immediately into the presence of God awaiting the resurrection of their own bodies. Christ was in the heart of the earth 3 days and nights so that is where the thief went. I never said that the thief died first only that New Testament salvation wasn't preached or taught until after Christ died and resurrected.

Dogknox · Nov 5, 2014

tylerbones1313 said:

I say "NO" What you forget is The Thief was in a GARDEN right then right NOW not three days later!
Paradise is the Garden! The "Tree Of Life" is in a GARDEN, named PARADISE! No one enters the Garden because it is GUARDED by the revolving flaming sword! Before Abraham the Garden was guarded.. so even Abraham did not enter!

The Thief ended up with the Tree Of life in Paradise A GARDEN: IN A GARDEN! Not in Sheol or Gehenna!

tylerbones1313 Look YOUR proof >>>> "Sheol is found in the Bible sixty-five times. It is translated “the pit” three times, “the grave” thirty-one times, and “hell” thirty-one times. Hades is used eleven times, being rendered “hell” ten times and “grave” once. Adding to the confusion is that two other words are also translated hell in the New Testament. These are Tartarus, which is found once and Gehenna, which is used twelve times."
Nothing about a >GARDEN<!!!

Revelation 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

PACEMAKER · Nov 6, 2014

tylerbones1313 said:

Tyler,, Could Jesus have gone to Paradise First,

Before going to Hades ???????

Tyler , you said " I never said that the thief died first only that New Testament salvation wasn't preached or taught until after Christ died and resurrected.

Tyler; this is you Quote on post #803

Originally Posted by tylerbones1313

PaceMaker:

I am so sick of people bringing up the thief on the cross as part of their argument against water baptism. Water baptism in Jesus Name was not in effect until Christ died. All the way up til He (Christ) took his last human breath on earth we were under the Old Covenant or some would say Old Testament. Water baptism is New Testament salvation.

Tyler, Apparently you forget what you say...

Again JESUS SAID That the Thief WOULD

BE WITH HIM
WHEN ??? TODAY

WHERE ??? In PARADISE

The Thief was Under the New Covenant
Not "water baptized "
Went to PARADISE

Question: "What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abraham’s bosom?

Answer: The different terms used in the Bible for heaven and hell—
sheol, hades, gehenna, the lake of fire, paradise, and Abraham’s bosom—
are the subject of much debate and can be confusing.

The word “paradise” is used as a synonym for heaven (2 Corinthians 12:3; Revelation 2:7). When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used paradise as a synonym for heaven, and the word has come to be associated with any place of ideal loveliness and delight.

Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). It was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. There are differences of opinion about what exactly Abraham’s bosom represents. Those who believe the setting of the story is a period after the Messiah’s death and resurrection see Abraham’s bosom as synonymous with heaven. Those who believe the setting to be prior to the crucifixion see Abraham’s bosom as another term for paradise. The setting is really irrelevant to the point of the story, which is that wicked men will see the righteous in happiness, and themselves in torment, and that a “great gulf” exists between them (Luke 16:26) which will never be spanned.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection.

The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell, the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.

But those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life
should have no fear of this terrible fate.

By faith in Christ and His blood shed on the cross for our sins,
we are destined to live eternally in the presence of God.

Dogknox · Nov 7, 2014

Dogknox said:

I say "NO" What you forget is The Thief was in a GARDEN right then right NOW not three days later!
Paradise is the Garden! The "Tree Of Life" is in a GARDEN, named PARADISE! No one enters the Garden because it is GUARDED by the revolving flaming sword! Before Abraham the Garden was guarded.. so even Abraham did not enter!

The Thief ended up with the Tree Of life in Paradise A GARDEN: IN A GARDEN! Not in Sheol or Gehenna!

tylerbones1313 Look YOUR proof >>>> "Sheol is found in the Bible sixty-five times. It is translated “the pit” three times, “the grave” thirty-one times, and “hell” thirty-one times. Hades is used eleven times, being rendered “hell” ten times and “grave” once. Adding to the confusion is that two other words are also translated hell in the New Testament. These are Tartarus, which is found once and Gehenna, which is used twelve times."
Nothing about a >GARDEN<!!!

Revelation 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

I replyed to post #915 (above).... tylerbones1313 where are you????!

Bride · Nov 7, 2014

Lol, this thread looks like someone threw a bunch of live frogs in a blender

PACEMAKER · Nov 8, 2014

Dogknox said:

Dogknox; Thought that you would be interested in this Info..

Question: "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question
in all of Christian theology.
This question is the cause of the Reformation,
the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church.
This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity
and most of the “Christian” cults.

Is salvation by faith alone,

or by faith plus works?

Am I saved just by believing in Jesus,
or do I have to believe in Jesus
And do certain things? Like "water baptism"

The question of faith alone or faith plus works

is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages.
Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24.

Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone)

and James (salvation is by faith plus works).

Paul dogmatically says that justification
is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9),

while James appears to be saying that justification
is by faith plus works.

This apparent problem is answered by examining

what exactly James is talking about.

James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith
without producing any good works (James 2:17-18).

James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ

will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26).

James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works,

but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith
will have good works in his/her life.

If a person claims to be a believer,
but has no good works in his/her life,
then he/she likely does not have genuine
faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings.
The good fruit believers should have in their lives
is listed in Galatians 5:22-23.

Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith,
not works (Ephesians 2:8-9),
Paul informs us that we were created
to do good works (Ephesians 2:10).

Paul expects just as much of a changed life
as James does:

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation;

the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching
regarding salvation.

They approach the same subject from different perspectives.
Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone

while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine

faith in Christ produces good works.

Dogknow Remember To take Scriptures in Context..
James message was to people
that ARE Already Christians ....

We should be careful not to neglect baptism’s importance.
Baptism is the sign or the symbol

for what takes place when one is born again.

Baptism’s importance should not be
downplayed or minimized.

However, "water baptism" does not save us.
And "water baptism" does NOT Wash Away Sins...

What saves us is the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit,

when we are born again
and regenerated by the Holy Spirit
(Titus 3:5).

5 HE SAVES US
NOT because of Works Done

by us in righteousness,

but according to His own MERCY....

by the washing of regeneration
and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

This is what the Scriptures say

NOT the Opinion of men

mailmandan · Nov 9, 2014

PACEMAKER said:

Dogknox; Thought that you would be interested in this Info..

Question: "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question
in all of Christian theology.
This question is the cause of the Reformation,
the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church.
This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity
and most of the “Christian” cults.

Is salvation by faith alone,

or by faith plus works?

Am I saved just by believing in Jesus,
or do I have to believe in Jesus
And do certain things? Like "water baptism"

The question of faith alone or faith plus works

is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages.
Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24.

Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone)

and James (salvation is by faith plus works).

Paul dogmatically says that justification
is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9),

while James appears to be saying that justification
is by faith plus works.

This apparent problem is answered by examining

what exactly James is talking about.

James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith
without producing any good works (James 2:17-18).

James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ

will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26).

James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works,

but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith
will have good works in his/her life.

If a person claims to be a believer,
but has no good works in his/her life,
then he/she likely does not have genuine
faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings.
The good fruit believers should have in their lives
is listed in Galatians 5:22-23.

Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith,
not works (Ephesians 2:8-9),
Paul informs us that we were created
to do good works (Ephesians 2:10).

Paul expects just as much of a changed life
as James does:

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation;

the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching
regarding salvation.

They approach the same subject from different perspectives.
Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone

while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine

faith in Christ produces good works.

Dogknow Remember To take Scriptures in Context..
James message was to people
that ARE Already Christians ....

We should be careful not to neglect baptism’s importance.
Baptism is the sign or the symbol

for what takes place when one is born again.

Baptism’s importance should not be
downplayed or minimized.

However, "water baptism" does not save us.
And "water baptism" does NOT Wash Away Sins...

What saves us is the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit,

when we are born again
and regenerated by the Holy Spirit
(Titus 3:5).
5 HE SAVES US
NOT because of Works Done

by us in righteousness,

but according to His own MERCY....

by the washing of regeneration
and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

This is what the Scriptures say

NOT the Opinion of men

AMEN!

Dogknox said:

Interesting quotes by Chrysostom:

Chrysostom: "What then did God do? He made (says Paul) a righteous Person (Christ) to be a sinner, in order that he might make sinners righteous... it is the righteousness of God, when we are justified, not by works...but by grace, where all sin is made to vanish away."

Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that hewho adhered to faith alone, is blessed."

Baptism symbol only ?

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