BEWARE the Lawkeepers

[crossnote]

Yes if we break on we break them all, this is the point, man can not do this. but with God all things are possible.

Grace is the power to overcome in faith in Jesus.

Peter saw this Grace connected to the Holy Spirit which then makes us obedient children to be holy.

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

James connected Grace to putting away sin by way of drawing close to God.

Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Paul said Grace helps us serve God acceptably. In context Paul is displaying the difference between the law given on Sinai to coming to the heavenly throne.


Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

It seems holiness has something to do with Grace.

Heb_10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Again the Spirit is attached to grace which Paul shows is the power to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Grace leads us to good works. IT teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. to live Godly in life now.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace comes through Faith and is a gift. which has to do with us being his workmanship unto good works.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Grace has to do with quickening us, giving us life in Jesus now.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Grace was given to Paul to be able to live with his infirmities. It is the power of Christ in us, His strength manifest in weakness.

2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Again Grace brings good work. no one is good but God. thus this goodness must be from God.

1Co 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1Co 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
1Co 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:


The Grace of God is power in the gift of Christ.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Grace comes to those who are justified by faith. and grace is also accessed by Faith.

Rom_1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Grace for Obedience to the faith.



Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The power of sin is broken because of grace the power of God in us.



I have been really quick here. study it for yourself. Grace is more than just your forgiven, it is the Power of the Creator to create in you a clean heart.

The power of sin is broken because of Christ's death and resurrection..
If you want a response from me one or two scriptures will do not a cut and paste job of 50 or . so.

 

[crossnote]

I know! I explained to you the history and background of Acts so you could know that Paul was not against Moses, and it was absolutely over your head and probably over most everyone's head.

Yup, you're so knowledgeable and way above us peons.

 

[chubbena]

...21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

And one more time in case one misses this verse because he could not and would not use this verse to support his opinion.

 

[john832]

That's because if one thinks they are keeping the commandments as layed out by Moses then circumcision was a requirement.

Got a scripture for that?

 

[john832]

That's right, and you have just shown the Mosaic laws were only a shadow of better things to come.

The problem was with the people. The New Covenant is writing the Laws in our hearts and minds. Carnal people cannot have that done to them...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Christ did not come to change the Law, He came to change us.

 

[john832]

This is the point, you are not obeying God's commands e.g. circumcision, sabbath etc., unless you are observing all 613.

First of all, you gotta a scripture that says that about all 613?

 

[Richie_2uk]

Luke 11: 46 " Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. "

 

[john832]

When a discussion of hell comes up notice one of the first passages that people go to is Luke 16. It seems strange that when a discussion of Law comes up, that one is never referenced...

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Again quoting the most unpopular Voice in the New Testament.

 

[john832]

Luke 11: 46 " Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. "

And what laws were they burdening the people with?

Luk 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
Luk 11:40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
Luk 11:41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luk 11:43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
Luk 11:45 Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.
Luk 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

What was it they taught? The Law of God or their own Law?

Mar 7:1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mar 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

What were they doing? Laying aside the Commandments of God so that they could teach their own traditions.

 

[chubbena]

First of all, you gotta a scripture that says that about all 613?

Yes and it's answered in post #67 which says

Luke 11: 46 " Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. "

Same then, same now.

 

[john832]

Actually, I think this thread should be renamed...

Beware the Law breakers.

They frighten me much more than one who keeps the Commandments.

 

[chubbena]

The power of sin is broken because of Christ's death and resurrection..

So it shouldn't be a problem for anyone in Christ to obey the Word of God and Romans 7:15-24 should have become obsolete don't you think?

Romans 7:15-24 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

And the reason why these verses are not obsolete because we don't have enough faith in Christ that He has broken the power of sin don't you think?

Shouldn't we be more diligent in reminding each other of Romans 6:5-14

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Rather than doing a cut and paste job of only part of Romans 6:14 i.e. you are not under the law, but under grace, don't you think?

 

[chubbena]

Actually, I think this thread should be renamed...

Beware the Law breakers.

They frighten me much more than one who keeps the Commandments.

It's an appropriate title because only the law breakers are afraid of law keepers. Like criminals are afraid of cops.
And if a friendly brother tells them not to act against the law anymore and to learn to abide by the law, he would be treated as enemies. Like criminals like law breakers.
Of course no one is perfect, not even the cops.

 

[BradC]

When a discussion of hell comes up notice one of the first passages that people go to is Luke 16. It seems strange that when a discussion of Law comes up, that one is never referenced...

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Again quoting the most unpopular Voice in the New Testament.

At that time there was nothing more than Moses, the law and the prophets to hear. The apostles had not been empowered yet and the mystery of the revelation had not been revealed yet concerning Christ and the church. Christ had not died and shed His blood, eternal redemption had not been obtained, the resurrection had not taken place for our justification and sin had not yet been put away. Also the Holy Spirit had not come yet because Christ had not ascended.

I will reference that passage in (Luke 16) in this manner...

Rom 8:2-4
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (not Moses, the law or the prophets)
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law of the Spirit of life has the power to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment and transform the heart of the sinner, something the law could never do. The prophets could give warnings concerning the fate of Israel as a people and nation and prophecy of the Messiah to come, but is made no difference. The law could point to sin but never convict the heart of sin. The law could never get anyone to believe God against themselves. The Israelites wonders and miracles by the hand of Moses, they had Aaron, Joshua, the Levitical priesthood, the tabernacle and the presence of God, yet non of it was enough to bring those who were delivered out of Egypt into the promised land, except for Joshua and Caleb. They could not even spy out the land God was going to give to them and come back with a good report. They had the prophet Moses but they were evil, they had the law but they were evil, they had the fire by day and the cloud by night but they were evil, they had the quail and manna from heave supernaturally provided for them and for (40 years) their clothes and shoes never wore out, but they murmured and complained in their tents and God was not pleased with them and destroyed them in the wilderness.

'For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh'

 

[chubbena]

Yet the mystery of the revelation had been revealed concerning Christ and the church to the Bereans.

 

[crossnote]

First of all, you gotta a scripture that says that about all 613?

The Law is a Whole and cannot be divided. Even James said if you broken the law in one point you have broken the whole law.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Once you realize this you'll see yourself forever guilty by the law's standard...that which so many on CC exalt in rather than the grace found in Jesus Christ.

 

[just-me]

Mixing faith with law, something the Bible "repeatedly" warns against.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Interesting that those who mix law-keeping with faith are considered "bewitched!"

Paul wrote some good letters. He defined faith and law the correct way.

Acts 24:10-14
10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak , answered , Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
11 Because that thou mayest understand , that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship .
12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people , neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law.

Deuteronomy is part of the law. Let me quote a verse for edification. Verse 5 in chapter 6
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Look at the law as instructions rather than legalistic such as the Galatians did.

 

[BradC]

Actually, I think this thread should be renamed...

Beware the Law breakers.

They frighten me much more than one who keeps the Commandments.

If you really want to be honest, study and see just how much work that Christ did on the Sabbath (John 5:17, 9:4). He worked just as hard on the Sabbath as He did the other six days. You will say that He was doing His Father's work and He was, but have we not also been called unto the same work and shall we not do that work on the Sabbath as well as on the other six days? I know a man of God who worked more on what you consider to be the Sabbath then the other six because it was a greater opportunity to win Christ through a labor of love. He was a full time minister and had no other job and when asked about his grueling schedule and when he would rest, he replied that he found rest in the will of God and in the grace that he was given. Grace was sufficient in providing rest for this man who found the greatest times of refreshment when he was with the body of Christ fellowshipping in the love of God.

Isaiah 32:15-18
15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
16 Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.
17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
18 And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;

 

[RedTent]

Yup, you're so knowledgeable and way above us peons.

Then don't respond to me as if you think I am a peon who cannot learn from the Lord, or do not know anything about scripture.

 

[crossnote]

When a discussion of hell comes up notice one of the first passages that people go to is Luke 16. It seems strange that when a discussion of Law comes up, that one is never referenced...

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Again quoting the most unpopular Voice in the New Testament.

That's because the law isn't the point of the passage but that Moses spoke of the Redeemer as well did the prophets...

Deuteronomy 18:17-19 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.