BEWARE the Lawkeepers

[crossnote]

So it shouldn't be a problem for anyone in Christ to obey the Word of God and Romans 7:15-24 should have become obsolete don't you think?


And the reason why these verses are not obsolete because we don't have enough faith in Christ that He has broken the power of sin don't you think?

Shouldn't we be more diligent in reminding each other of Romans 6:5-14


Rather than doing a cut and paste job of only part of Romans 6:14 i.e. you are not under the law, but under grace, don't you think?

No, we should be more diligent in reminding Christians of Rom 8 which lays out the work of the Holy Spirit in our sanctification. Rom 7 shows our utter impotence in trying to keep the law in our own self effort.

 

[just-me]

If you really want to be honest, study and see just how much work that Christ did on the Sabbath (John 5:17, 9:4). He worked just as hard on the Sabbath as He did the other six days. You will say that He was doing His Father's work and He was, but have we not also been called unto the same work and shall we not do that work on the Sabbath as well as on the other six days? I know a man of God who worked more on what you consider to be the Sabbath then the other six because it was a greater opportunity to win Christ through a labor of love. He was a full time minister and had no other job and when asked about his grueling schedule and when he would rest, he replied that he found rest in the will of God and in the grace that he was given. Grace was sufficient in providing rest for this man who found the greatest times of refreshment when he was with the body of Christ fellowshipping in the love of God.

Isaiah 32:15-18
15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
16 Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.
17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
18 And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;

In studying the feast of tabernacles it seems as God wanted them to build on the Sabbath. It wasn't their work but His work for them. They were keeping the Sabbath day holy unto the Lord.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.


Instructions for their construction was on a *Sabbath day, which would be very laborious, yet would be a day of rest. Leviticus 23:39-40 (KJV) “Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a *sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath. And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.” According to the law, this seems to be a clear-cut contradiction to other scriptures concerning the Sabbath, for Exodus 20:8-11 says to “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”

 

[chubbena]

The Law is a Whole and cannot be divided. Even James said if you broken the law in one point you have broken the whole law.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Once you realize this you'll see yourself forever guilty by the law's standard...that which so many on CC exalt in rather than the grace found in Jesus Christ.

Learning to do good does not mean giving up the grace found in Christ, does it?

 

[RedTent]

If you really want to be honest, study and see just how much work that Christ did on the Sabbath (John 5:17, 9:4). He worked just as hard on the Sabbath as He did the other six days. You will say that He was doing His Father's work and He was, but have we not also been called unto the same work and shall we not do that work on the Sabbath as well as on the other six days? I know a man of God who worked more on what you consider to be the Sabbath then the other six because it was a greater opportunity to win Christ through a labor of love. He was a full time minister and had no other job and when asked about his grueling schedule and when he would rest, he replied that he found rest in the will of God and in the grace that he was given. Grace was sufficient in providing rest for this man who found the greatest times of refreshment when he was with the body of Christ fellowshipping in the love of God.

Isaiah 32:15-18
15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
16 Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.
17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
18 And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;

I can see how you could read the way Christ kept the Sabbath Rest as work. Think of it this way instead, it is another approach to the same thing. Christ was trying to correct the top religious guys of the land, the ones that knew scripture best. They said they were obeying the Sabbath law perfectly, and Christ knew they weren't obeying it at all. To obey, you have to first know all comes from God and God blessed a special day, and asked us to acknowledge our dependence on him by not working for ourselves. Those guys took God out of it and just didn't work. How they didn't work was more important than God.

You can read these scriptures and look for the "work" Christ did, or you can read them to find out the spirit we are to have when we keep Sabbath.

 

[john832]

At that time there was nothing more than Moses, the law and the prophets to hear. The apostles had not been empowered yet and the mystery of the revelation had not been revealed yet concerning Christ and the church. Christ had not died and shed His blood, eternal redemption had not been obtained, the resurrection had not taken place for our justification and sin had not yet been put away. Also the Holy Spirit had not come yet because Christ had not ascended.

I will reference that passage in (Luke 16) in this manner...

Rom 8:2-4
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (not Moses, the law or the prophets)
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law of the Spirit of life has the power to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment and transform the heart of the sinner, something the law could never do. The prophets could give warnings concerning the fate of Israel as a people and nation and prophecy of the Messiah to come, but is made no difference. The law could point to sin but never convict the heart of sin. The law could never get anyone to believe God against themselves. The Israelites wonders and miracles by the hand of Moses, they had Aaron, Joshua, the Levitical priesthood, the tabernacle and the presence of God, yet non of it was enough to bring those who were delivered out of Egypt into the promised land, except for Joshua and Caleb. They could not even spy out the land God was going to give to them and come back with a good report. They had the prophet Moses but they were evil, they had the law but they were evil, they had the fire by day and the cloud by night but they were evil, they had the quail and manna from heave supernaturally provided for them and for (40 years) their clothes and shoes never wore out, but they murmured and complained in their tents and God was not pleased with them and destroyed them in the wilderness.

'For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh'

So what this diatribe says is that we cannot take Christ's instruction and use it. We must go to the REAL authority, Paul.

Again, the most unpopular Voice in the New Testament is Christ. If He says to do something, there are all day wranglings about why we should not and if He says not to do something, there are all day wranglings as to why we should.

Seems to me that some people simply remove the words in red from their Bible, their minds and their lives.

 

[john832]

The Law is a Whole and cannot be divided. Even James said if you broken the law in one point you have broken the whole law.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Once you realize this you'll see yourself forever guilty by the law's standard...that which so many on CC exalt in rather than the grace found in Jesus Christ.

Yep, I am guilty when I break the Law and I do that far too often. Thankfully...

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[crossnote]

Yup, you're so knowledgeable and way above us peons.

Then don't respond to me as if you think I am a peon who cannot learn from the Lord, or do not know anything about scripture.

typical word twist. But you do have a great idea.

 

[john832]

That's because the law isn't the point of the passage but that Moses spoke of the Redeemer as well did the prophets...

Deuteronomy 18:17-19 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Deu 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Now whom do you suppose was speaking in verse 32?

 

[crossnote]

Learning to do good does not mean giving up the grace found in Christ, does it?

learning to do good only comes by the grace of God via His Spirit working in us both to will and do of His good pleasure.

 

[john832]

Learning to do good does not mean giving up the grace found in Christ, does it?

Grace (undeserved, unearned forgiveness) pays for our sin and faults.

 

[chubbena]

No, we should be more diligent in reminding Christians of Rom 8 which lays out the work of the Holy Spirit in our sanctification. Rom 7 shows our utter impotence in trying to keep the law in our own self effort.

You are right. We shouldn't focus on some chapters or verses and neglect the others. The reason Paul stated up front that the law is not nullified and that the law is holy so that no one could possibly misunderstand what he was going to say. Then he spoke how impotent man is cf Romans 8:7

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

Then only through the Holy Spirit could one obey cf Romans 8:12-13

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Once again - the mind governed by the flesh does not submit to God's law. Only by the Spirit could one put to death the misdeeds of the body and submit to God's law.

 

[crossnote]

So what this diatribe says is that we cannot take Christ's instruction and use it. We must go to the REAL authority, Paul.

Again, the most unpopular Voice in the New Testament is Christ. If He says to do something, there are all day wranglings about why we should not and if He says not to do something, there are all day wranglings as to why we should.

Seems to me that some people simply remove the words in red from their Bible, their minds and their lives.

Jesus was sent to the lost tribe of Israel, Paul was sent by Jesus to minister to the Gentiles.

 

[chubbena]

Grace (undeserved, unearned forgiveness) pays for our sin and faults.

This grace was promised long ago by God through Moses and fulfilled by God through the Word who came in the flesh.
He said "The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness." cf Exodus 34:6.

 

[chubbena]

learning to do good only comes by the grace of God via His Spirit working in us both to will and do of His good pleasure.

So we should not have a problem, should we? But the fact is we do so what goes wrong?

And...I'm not sure why you quoted your answer to Red Tent. Please clarify.

 

[crossnote]

learning to do good only comes by the grace of God via His Spirit working in us both to will and do of His good pleasure.

Grace (undeserved, unearned forgiveness) pays for our sin and faults.

True, but I hope you also hold to the former.

 

[crossnote]

So we should not have a problem, should we? But the fact is we do so what goes wrong?

Good question.
Whatever goes wrong is our doing, whatever tends to godliness is His doing and thus all glory is due Him.
I think I deleted the rt ref.

 

[john832]

Jesus was sent to the lost tribe of Israel, Paul was sent by Jesus to minister to the Gentiles.

Oh, so Paul is greater? I see.

 

[KohenMatt]

If you really want to be honest, study and see just how much work that Christ did on the Sabbath (John 5:17, 9:4). He worked just as hard on the Sabbath as He did the other six days. You will say that He was doing His Father's work and He was, but have we not also been called unto the same work and shall we not do that work on the Sabbath as well as on the other six days? I know a man of God who worked more on what you consider to be the Sabbath then the other six because it was a greater opportunity to win Christ through a labor of love. He was a full time minister and had no other job and when asked about his grueling schedule and when he would rest, he replied that he found rest in the will of God and in the grace that he was given. Grace was sufficient in providing rest for this man who found the greatest times of refreshment when he was with the body of Christ fellowshipping in the love of God.

I can relate. I work twice as hard on Saturday as I do at my normal 8-5 job. Service to God and His people is rarely without effort and "work". But just as the priests offered up twice as many sacrifices on the Sabbath as the other 6 days, so God's priests are called to serve just as much, if not more, on the Sabbath.

Fortunately, the Sabbath instructions didn't include any prohibition from ministry. Just "common" work.

 

[RedTent]

typical word twist. But you do have a great idea.

People who condemn others are not of God. "You can tell them by their love". You have stated your position with the Lord. I feel anger at you for your ways, I'll take it to the Lord and pray for your soul that it can accept what is of Him.

 

[john832]

Grace (undeserved, unearned forgiveness) pays for our sin and faults.

True, but I hope you also hold to the former.

Oh I do, I just don't think that grace gives me the license to continue in sin without repenting of it.