-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
L
Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This says we are saved by grace through faith and faith is a gift of God. Verse 10 says we are created in Christ for good works. So we are saved for good works.
John 8:11 KJV
(11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
According to this verse first the woman was saved then Jesus said go and sin no more. It lines up with Ephesians 2:8-10. The woman had no way of saving herself, she was condemned by the law, Jesus response did not do away with the law, rather He used the law. The law states there had to be at least two witnesses, in the end there were none.
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This says we are saved by grace through faith and faith is a gift of God. Verse 10 says we are created in Christ for good works. So we are saved for good works.
John 8:11 KJV
(11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
According to this verse first the woman was saved then Jesus said go and sin no more. It lines up with Ephesians 2:8-10. The woman had no way of saving herself, she was condemned by the law, Jesus response did not do away with the law, rather He used the law. The law states there had to be at least two witnesses, in the end there were none.
In fact, anyone who teaches such as lawlessness is in danger, according to scripture. It says it would be better if a millstone was put around their neck and they be thrown in the sea. In Luke it goes on to say that if your brother sins rebuke him and if he repents forgive him. Note that is only for our brothers in Christ! We aren't to judge him, just the sin. Teaching that God doesn't define sin sounds right down dangerous.
All people who pull scripture apart to make it say differently are in real danger.
All people who pull scripture apart to make it say differently are in real danger.
B
Grace does no such thing. When sin abounds grace does much more abound because Christ has put away sin through His own blood. It is the blood that has the purchasing power to redeem man and reconcile him to God by grace through faith. God is not obligated to minister grace to anyone. God sent His Son into the world not to condemn it but to put away sin and give man the opportunity to have everlasting life. Man's sin was put away through His Son so that God could be merciful and gracious to those who believe and call upon the name of Jesus. Grace is undeserved favor that is based upon the justice of God being satisfied at the cross.
Leviticus 23:8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Servile work is referring to bond servant labor, etc., and they were also to let there beasts of labor rest for the common work of their agriculture. It also included working for profit. It even went so far as to gather double portions of manna on the 6th day. I think this is what is meant by the phrase "common work."
Servile work is referring to bond servant labor, etc., and they were also to let there beasts of labor rest for the common work of their agriculture. It also included working for profit. It even went so far as to gather double portions of manna on the 6th day. I think this is what is meant by the phrase "common work."
J
Man's conscience is a witness that there is a great 'law-giver' which convicts man of 'right and wrong.' Let's not get confused with doing right over wrong as being equal to keeping the 'law of Moses'. Obviously, any "true" believer strives to do what's 'right' because the Spirit of God dwells in him. But don't think for one second that he suddenly has to go back to the Mosaic covenant in order to do that! The "LAW OF MOSES" was "DONE AWAY WITH" at the cross, at the death of Christ. Ever read Hebrews 4-9? With the death of the testator, the new covenant took effect. The "LAW OF CHRIST" is NOT "the LAW OF MOSES". When we love God first, then our fellow-man, we are fulfilling what God requires of us! Not some 613 laws given to the children of Israel!
The problem with these law-keepers is they have no clue about the dispensation of Israel and the dispensation of the church. They think they ARE Israel and therefore cannot even recognize when Christ is speaking to Jewish believers, which he did during his entire ministry on earth. Remember, the OLD COVENANT was still in effect UNTIL the death of Christ! Which is why Christ often referred to it.
These law-keepers are the exact reason why Replacement Theology is so dangerous. They command men to keep the law of Moses, or at least whichever ones they like to keep (sighs), keeping men in bondage, while they themselves are blind to the purpose of the Cross! They have no understanding of how the New covenant replaces the Old, or that Christ LITERALLY FULFILLED the Mosaic Law by being the embodiment of all that it required. Only he is perfect and was able to do that! Yet, here come the Law-keepers, beginning in the Spirit (I suppose), then thinking they have to finish what Christ started. Reverting back to the Mosaic Law, they are no better off than the Pharisees of Paul's day that he constantly rebuked.
In fact, if you studied the NT, you wouldn't find ONE commandment Christ gave to keep the Sabbath! Not one. 9 of the 10 commandments are mentioned, but the 4th is conspicuously absent. Why is that? Oh, I know. Because the Sabbath was given to a certain people for a very specific reason. Those before Moses did not keep the Sabbath, and the NT church definitely is not commanded to keep it. So who was it given to and why?
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore [for this reason!] the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day.
Were any of you law-keepers here today delivered out of physical Egypt? lol. Are you of Jewish descent? If not, then this particular commandment was not made for you! And even if you were of Jewish lineage, Christ fulfilled the Sabbath and now asks that you REST in HIS COMPLETED WORK ON THE CROSS.
Quite frankly, if you ask any Orthodox Jew, they will tell you plainly that Gentiles are not at any point and time commanded to "keep the Sabbath." Why?
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Who was alive that day? Israel! The Sabbath command was given to Israel alone (see also Exodus 31:12-17), "Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of ISRAEL, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." Also mentioned in Ezekiel 20:12.
But I doubt any of this will convince someone who is already convinced that he has to WORK to help Christ be the Savior.
The problem with these law-keepers is they have no clue about the dispensation of Israel and the dispensation of the church. They think they ARE Israel and therefore cannot even recognize when Christ is speaking to Jewish believers, which he did during his entire ministry on earth. Remember, the OLD COVENANT was still in effect UNTIL the death of Christ! Which is why Christ often referred to it.
These law-keepers are the exact reason why Replacement Theology is so dangerous. They command men to keep the law of Moses, or at least whichever ones they like to keep (sighs), keeping men in bondage, while they themselves are blind to the purpose of the Cross! They have no understanding of how the New covenant replaces the Old, or that Christ LITERALLY FULFILLED the Mosaic Law by being the embodiment of all that it required. Only he is perfect and was able to do that! Yet, here come the Law-keepers, beginning in the Spirit (I suppose), then thinking they have to finish what Christ started. Reverting back to the Mosaic Law, they are no better off than the Pharisees of Paul's day that he constantly rebuked.
In fact, if you studied the NT, you wouldn't find ONE commandment Christ gave to keep the Sabbath! Not one. 9 of the 10 commandments are mentioned, but the 4th is conspicuously absent. Why is that? Oh, I know. Because the Sabbath was given to a certain people for a very specific reason. Those before Moses did not keep the Sabbath, and the NT church definitely is not commanded to keep it. So who was it given to and why?
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore [for this reason!] the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day.
Were any of you law-keepers here today delivered out of physical Egypt? lol. Are you of Jewish descent? If not, then this particular commandment was not made for you! And even if you were of Jewish lineage, Christ fulfilled the Sabbath and now asks that you REST in HIS COMPLETED WORK ON THE CROSS.
Quite frankly, if you ask any Orthodox Jew, they will tell you plainly that Gentiles are not at any point and time commanded to "keep the Sabbath." Why?
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Who was alive that day? Israel! The Sabbath command was given to Israel alone (see also Exodus 31:12-17), "Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of ISRAEL, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." Also mentioned in Ezekiel 20:12.
But I doubt any of this will convince someone who is already convinced that he has to WORK to help Christ be the Savior.
H
Good point john316forall.
Rom 11:6 confirms this.
if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Under grace Christians are one spirit with the Lord.
1Cor 6:15-18
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid . What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he , shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
The fornication referred to here is spiritual fornication with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law.
Gal 4:24
Which things are an allegory : for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar
Under grace we are married to Christ/one spirit with the Lord.
Therefore we should not mix grace with works of the law, as scriptures warns (Rom 11:6).
To mix grace with works is spiritual fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.
Instead, Christians should flee fornication with Hagar. We must not partake of the spiritual drunkenness of those who are drunk with the wine of spiritual fornication.
Rev 17:1,2
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither ; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication , and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
The law is not of faith (Gal 3:12), hence we should not be like the foolish Galatians who turned back to the law.
We should all avoid any teachings that try to lead us back under the law, into spiritual fornication with Hagar. A little leaven leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9.
Rom 11:6 confirms this.
if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Under grace Christians are one spirit with the Lord.
1Cor 6:15-18
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid . What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he , shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
The fornication referred to here is spiritual fornication with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law.
Gal 4:24
Which things are an allegory : for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar
Under grace we are married to Christ/one spirit with the Lord.
Therefore we should not mix grace with works of the law, as scriptures warns (Rom 11:6).
To mix grace with works is spiritual fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.
Instead, Christians should flee fornication with Hagar. We must not partake of the spiritual drunkenness of those who are drunk with the wine of spiritual fornication.
Rev 17:1,2
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither ; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication , and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
The law is not of faith (Gal 3:12), hence we should not be like the foolish Galatians who turned back to the law.
We should all avoid any teachings that try to lead us back under the law, into spiritual fornication with Hagar. A little leaven leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9.
Last edited by a moderator:
The problem with law is they were established for the lawless being sinners but if through faith in Jesus and the finished works of the cross we would grasp the concept that Christ came to abolish sin from our lives that we be dead to sin and alive in the resurrected righteous state of Christ through the spirit that we are justified by faith and because we have been justified by faith we live a holy and righteous life through the spirit as in Galatians 5 for if one tries to be justified by the law make Christ void by faithlessness but while we seek Christ we recognize we need a saviour are justified in Jesus and because of Jesus and by faith declaring death by immersion of water and arising to life as He did putting away of the old ordained life to live in all righteousness ,perfect in obedience in His image according to the provision of the spirit as we were quickenened to life the ten commandments in no way violate the grace but if any wishes to impose the harshness of the law as the Jews did if one reads the book of the law certain things like touch this do not wear this or to even say no healings on the sabbath but we that are abound in christ worship in full righteousness and not according to the letter of the law butin spirit and in truth.
H
john316forall. the title you gave to this topic "Beware the lawkeepers" is similar to the warning Jesus gave in Matt 16:6.
Then Jesus said unto them,Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees
Matt 16:12 explains further, which is in keeping with your point..
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
The leaven/doctrine of the Pharisees/Sadducees is similar to the legalists we see on forums today. It's righteousness by works of the law
Then Jesus said unto them,Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees
Matt 16:12 explains further, which is in keeping with your point..
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
The leaven/doctrine of the Pharisees/Sadducees is similar to the legalists we see on forums today. It's righteousness by works of the law
I doubt anyone will listen to scripture, but I will try to explain what it says to me.
Scripture says the law does not work for salvation. Just like a car is not a boat, won't work. But you don't throw out the car because it won't float, and you don't throw out the law because it won't save. You find out why God gave the law and use it for what it is intended for. When God gave an explanation of law on Mt Sinai scripture says it was how God blesses us and to disobey is a curse. We know that has nothing to do with salvation because no scripture in the entire bible says we are saved by the law. Christ said we are great in the kingdom when we obey and least when we disobey.
Even on Mt Sinai, the law was not given until the Hebrews were saved from slavery. We are to read and listen to this as an illustration of Christ and his saving of us, of his freeing us from the slavery of sin.
Scripture says the law does not work for salvation. Just like a car is not a boat, won't work. But you don't throw out the car because it won't float, and you don't throw out the law because it won't save. You find out why God gave the law and use it for what it is intended for. When God gave an explanation of law on Mt Sinai scripture says it was how God blesses us and to disobey is a curse. We know that has nothing to do with salvation because no scripture in the entire bible says we are saved by the law. Christ said we are great in the kingdom when we obey and least when we disobey.
Even on Mt Sinai, the law was not given until the Hebrews were saved from slavery. We are to read and listen to this as an illustration of Christ and his saving of us, of his freeing us from the slavery of sin.
Are you saying that no one can ever try to obey Christ when He said "if you love me you will keep my commandments" without being a legalist? Do you think God orders disobedience in order not to obey without spirit and truth? If you are teaching to disobey scripture, it is teaching against the word and you are in dangerous territory. If you are teaching that you must obey in spirit and truth, then you are teaching as scripture teaches. However, there is a connection between the spiritual and the world God created. Scripture tells us this when it says "faith without works in dead".