BEWARE the Lawkeepers

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gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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gotime...

Not interested in the "rules" and "legalism" of the Seventh Day Adventism cult.
Now that's not very nice, I am pretty sure everything I just said in those posts came straight from the bible. SO what you really mean is your not interested in Gods rules or word.

Have a look its bible verses you will find them in your bible.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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anyone notice there are 666 likes on this thread,,,,
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

John says that those who believe in Jesus are born of God and love Jesus and his neighbour.

So What do those things mean to John?

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

So those who love keep his commandments and those who are born of God overcome the world by Faith.

John gives more details of what the born of God person does:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

What does John mean by sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

SO John clearly refers to sin as breaking the law and then says those who are born of God do not sin.

By Johns own words we find then that those who believe on Jesus by Faith will keep His commandments and not sin. which is keeping the commandments.



What does John mean by commandments?

The word used is:

entolē
en-tol-ay'
From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.

have a look its most commonly used by Jesus in reference to the 10 commandment law of God.

Can this be shown by John though?

1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

where did John get this Idea from?

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Old testament reference to the law of God.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

we have seen what John thought of believing in Jesus. but what does "love one another" mean?

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

again its connected to the 10 commandments. and this is Old testament teaching from Leviticus.

John also knew that the commandments would be an issue in the last days.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So its easy to see that John taught to keep the 10 commandments of God which are fulfilled in love by faith in Jesus.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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Its not an easy road to heaven. And those who turn back to works of the law stray off the road to heaven as they make themselves a transgressor (sinner/worker of iniquity), Gal 2:18.

They deny God by their works of the law, by which they have fallen from grace, Gal 5:4.

1Tim 6:11-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing

Christians fight the good fight of faith, believing on Jesus. We keep this commandment without spot, blameless.

But the law is NOT of faith, Gal 3:12.

Hence we see that legalists are not fighting the good fight.
Paul was trying his best to explain it to you, but you have to read all of Paul. You have decided that Paul taught people not to listen to the Torah, and Paul said he didn't teach that. So you are reading Paul from a warped viewpoint.

If you turn to the law for salvation you are doing wrong, but scripture after scripture (I can't copy and paste them all, surely you read scripture) says we are to obey.

If you believe in Jesus and all He says, He often talks of law and the need to live within the law.

Gal 3:12 But the law is not based on faith; instead, the one who does these things will live by them. You left out a key word and changed scripture's meaning with that. We are not allowed to do that. The law is based on love, not faith.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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This is true,,,,If saying it backward will help I will say it backward,,"Six days thou shalt do thy work,<---"COMMA",,,(you know what goes here,I will not repeat it)",,,so Adam as punishment was told all the days of his life he would labor(gen. 3;17-19),,a day is as a thousand years(2nd peter 3;8),,so Man(Adam) is given six days(6000 years),,and then he will rest,,"it is a prophecy",,,
so is the 4th commandment a prophecy,that is repeated by Moses?,,,,
 
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Linda70

Guest
Now that's not very nice, I am pretty sure everything I just said in those posts came straight from the bible. SO what you really mean is your not interested in Gods rules or word.

Have a look its bible verses you will find them in your bible.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I know that you posted Bible verses. However, when you pull Bible verses "out of context" in order to make those verses "fit" false teachings and you do not rightly divide the Word of Truth, it doesn't really matter how many Bible verses you post. The goal of "modern day Pharisees/legalists" is to "conform" people to a set of "rules" (the law). The law is not the believer's rule of life. The believer is told to put on Christ, not the law, to follow the Spirit of God, not the law. The believer's aim is not to be conformed to the law, but to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Christ came to redeem men from bondage to the law (Galatians 4:4-5), to remove their condemnation by paying the price the law demanded for man's sin. Those who try to bring believers back under the law are deceiving men and pointing them away from the finished work of Christ and true Bible freedom in Him. They are placing themselves under the curse of the law because of their false gospel, and they are leading others from truth of the Gospel into their curse. The goal of salvation is not to bring the believer to the law, but to present him perfect in Christ.

Paul admonished the Galatians about mixing "law with grace":

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Galatians 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The New Testament does not point back to the law as the believer's path of obedience--although the basic underlying moral principles of the law are eternal. The law (613 commandments), including the Ten Commandments "written and graven in stone," was a "ministration of death" which has been abolished in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2 Corinthians 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2 Corinthians 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2 Corinthians 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2 Corinthians 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
 
H

haz

Guest
Also the Bible says the devils also believe.
Actually James 2:19 says even the demons believe there is one God.

Then James 2:20 says "faith without works is dead".

What works?
Jesus told us in John 6:29 "believe on him whom He hath sent"

Legalists believe there is one God too, but by their works of the law (to prove whether they are righteous or not) they deny him, Tit 1:16.

Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

But the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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People have to realize that when the Bible speaks of the law it speaks of it as a whole not just the 10 commandments. The sacrificial laws pointed to Christ and His sacrifice for us. We are no longer under that part of the law. To say we are no longer have to keep the 10 commandments would cause anarchy.
You can't just willy nilly pick and choose on what parts of the law you will keep...it is an integrated whole in that if you break just one dot or tittle, you have broken the whole law.
Is that the course you really want to take?
 
H

haz

Guest
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid : yea, we establish the law.

Ask haz what he thinks about theses scriptures and have him interpret them correctly so we who esteem the law as valuable can understand how to stay above the law rather then go back under it. He might think that Paul wanted to go back under the law also. If we establish the law through faith that means that faith puts us back under the condemnation of the law. That seems to be backwards. I can't get it.
Hi just-me,

You could ask me yourself.

Legalists see "establish the law" as meaning that we are required to obey it.
Some legalists are consistent with scripture and claim that perfect obedience is required. This group are just deluding themselves if they think they will perfectly obey the law once the receive Christ.

And other legalists claim we need to obey the law to some unspecified, ambiguous, minimum standard, that varies depending on the individual and how long they live, etc. This latter group is clearly in error and have no scriptures to support the doctrine they follow.

But Christians under grace "establish the law" in that we acknowledge the law is just, good and holy (Rom 7:12) and that we were deserving of the death penalty. WE acknowledged that only the righteous may enter God's kingdom. Jesus was that righteous one.
But We needed a savior. Hence under grace our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

Both groups "establish the law".
But both groups have very different outcomes.
The legalists are under the law for righteousness and they will be found guilty of all of it. Being under the law they make themselves a transgressor/sinner/worker of iniquity (Gal 2:18).

But those under grace, their life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3
I no longer live but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20
God sees Christ in us, and not that old sinful body that is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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So am I right then to assume that If I accept your version of the Gospel then I don't have to worry about not sinning anymore?

I can steal I can lust in my heart and as long as I believe Jesus died for my sins I am righteous?

And thus even though I sin I have good works not bad ones?

Because that is what I am hearing.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Additional thought:

Matthew 19:21) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.


Why would Jesus tell someone this IF none of us are actually going to BE in heaven? Did Jesus lie to this young man?

Yes, I just wonder who is living up to this standard.

Jesus said to him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell what thou hast and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.
(Mat 19:21)

You see that laptop or tablet/phone you guys are typing on? Let's start with that...
 
Oct 31, 2011
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Does anyone else see the humor in some of these posts? They remind me of C S Lewis' Screwtape Letters.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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Yes, I just wonder who is living up to this standard.

Jesus said to him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell what thou hast and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.
(Mat 19:21)

You see that laptop or tablet/phone you guys are typing on? Let's start with that...
And why would scripture tell us to be perfect and then tell us we cannot be perfect? All scripture is to be listened to and none rejected, so wouldn't that tell you that we should aim for perfection? I haven't seen any scripture that says being it won't save you, and because you can't obey all the law, you shouldn't try ever, just let the Holy Spirit work in you without you doing anything to understand or do. I haven't even found a scripture that says we shouldn't do any work. Scripture says our work is as dirty rags, that is if we do it for salvation. But it doesn't say that all your work will be held against you.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Being under the same grace, following the law is a joy, and there is freedom in following that law, or have you not read what Paul teaches about differenct people revering different days, new moons, sabbaths etc. You will not find most who observe the Seventh Day as designated by Yahweh, as the Sabbath of the Lord, condemning others who revere another day designated by man, however they do recommend obeying our Father. As for your question, when dealing with the freedom under grace, it is not a wise approach to assume all will have the same understanding, but they will understand. God's ways are not our ways. Yahweh bless you with understanding, and when thinking in terms of the law, I am not under the law, I do my best to obey the law, for it is good (Paul), and it is holy (Paul), and itwill not pass away while the earth is yet here (Yeshua9:

Cool... Does everyone who understands come to the same conclusion about what's ok/not ok on sabbath? Does it vary with each person and situation? Grace and peace!
 
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Linda70

Guest
So am I right then to assume that If I accept your version of the Gospel then I don't have to worry about not sinning anymore?
My version of the Gospel? I posted the BIBLICAL Gospel...it's NOT my version of the Gospel!

Where did I ever say in ANY post that we don't have to be concerned about sinning anymore? There is no sinless perfectionism this side of the grave. A born again believer is "made perfect" (or mature) by YIELDING TO THE POWER OF THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT...NOT by keeping the Law.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
I can steal I can lust in my heart and as long as I believe Jesus died for my sins I am righteous?
Salvation is NEVER a license to sin. I have never said that on this forum or any other forum. (Romans 6:1-2, 15) Jesus died and paid the punishment for man's sins, and He rose from the dead. Because of this payment, God puts perfect righteousness to the account of the sinner who believes on Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). God gives the imparted righteousness of Jesus to believers that they might grow in conformity to Jesus Christ in practice as well as position (Romans 8:1-14). The Holy Spirit dwells in the believer to reproduce the life of Jesus Christ in him.

Prior to Mount Sinai, God administered His moral absolutes over all mankind in ways other than through the Mosaic Law. From Mount Sinai to the cross of Jesus Christ, He administered His moral absolutes over Israel through the Mosaic Law. Since the time of the cross, God has been administering His eternal absolutes over all of mankind in a way which is different from and superior to the Mosaic Law. The moral absolutes have not changed, but the way of God's administering those absolutes has changed. For example, idolatry and adultery have been just as wrong in God's sight since the time of the cross as they were when the Mosaic Law was in effect, but since the cross, God has not required the death penalty for those sins (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) as He did when the Mosaic Law was in effect (Exodus 22:20; Leviticus 20:10). The new, superior way of God's administering His moral absolutes is called grace. ....Renald E. Showers
gotime said:
And thus even though I sin I have good works not bad ones?

Because that is what I am hearing.
If that is what you are hearing, then you need a hearing aid! Keeping the Law does not make a person "righteous"...but self-righteous. What does Scripture say about self-righteousness?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

A born again child of God will not desire to sin, but will desire to please God and be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). However, since our sin nature has not been eradicated at salvation, we will continue to struggle with the "flesh" (Galatians 5:14-16). The apostle Paul describes his struggle in Romans 7...and his VICTORY IN CHRIST in Romans 8.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The apostle Paul did not teach that by keeping the law one would become "righteous"....he taught just the opposite. You can continue to "keep the Law" in order to attain your own "righteousness", or you can walk in the Spirit, yield to the Spirit's power, have victory over sin, and be conformed to the image of Christ. The choice is yours.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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You are looping. All of your questions have been answered by me or other of the brethren...... This reminds me of the Pharisees questioning the blind man......

Do you have an explanation of the following passage?
How do you interpret the following and how do we apply it to our lives today... I do not believe you have a good sound explanation of this passage, but if you do then give it.

Do you not know, brethren—for I am speaking to men who are acquainted with the Law (as you are JaumeJ) that legal claims have power over a person only for as long as he is alive?
2 For [instance] a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies, she is loosed and discharged from the law concerning her husband.
3 Accordingly, she will be held an adulteress if she unites herself to another man while her husband lives. But if her husband dies, the marriage law no longer is binding on her [she is free from that law]; and if she unites herself to another man, she is not an adulteress.
4 Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
5 When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by the Law were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs, in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh), so that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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One may make this declaration about any of man's doctrines, denominations, under the umbrella of Christianity.

Perhaps the world has come to the point where all should turn back to the beginning of our Salvation in Yeshua, that is, to the faith of Abraham, for it is in the Word.

gotime...

Not interested in the "rules" and "legalism" of the Seventh Day Adventism cult.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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My version of the Gospel? I posted the BIBLICAL Gospel...it's NOT my version of the Gospel!

Where did I ever say in ANY post that we don't have to be concerned about sinning anymore? There is no sinless perfectionism this side of the grave. A born again believer is "made perfect" (or mature) by YIELDING TO THE POWER OF THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT...NOT by keeping the Law.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Salvation is NEVER a license to sin. I have never said that on this forum or any other forum. (Romans 6:1-2, 15) Jesus died and paid the punishment for man's sins, and He rose from the dead. Because of this payment, God puts perfect righteousness to the account of the sinner who believes on Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). God gives the imparted righteousness of Jesus to believers that they might grow in conformity to Jesus Christ in practice as well as position (Romans 8:1-14). The Holy Spirit dwells in the believer to reproduce the life of Jesus Christ in him.

If that is what you are hearing, then you need a hearing aid! Keeping the Law does not make a person "righteous"...but self-righteous. What does Scripture say about self-righteousness?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

A born again child of God will not desire to sin, but will desire to please God and be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). However, since our sin nature has not been eradicated at salvation, we will continue to struggle with the "flesh" (Galatians 5:14-16). The apostle Paul describes his struggle in Romans 7...and his VICTORY IN CHRIST in Romans 8.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The apostle Paul did not teach that by keeping the law one would become "righteous"....he taught just the opposite. You can continue to "keep the Law" in order to attain your own "righteousness", or you can walk in the Spirit, yield to the Spirit's power, have victory over sin, and be conformed to the image of Christ. The choice is yours.
So is your conclusion from all of this that it is the scriptural correct thing to do to not keep the law?