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H
I do understand what you're saying, but that SDA doctrine you offer is not presenting a harmony between Paul and John. Whilst there is harmony between what Paul and John say, the SDA account of it only presents a contradiction of them both.
In Christ, Christians are righteous (Rom 4:5), holy (Rom 11:16), perfected (Heb 10:14), complete (Col 2:10). This contradicts your description of a Christian being crippled if they do not obey the law.
You described in an earlier post that one is not righteous if they do not obey the law.
You confirm that claim here as well likening anyone who does not obey the law as being like a cripple.
Clearly you see that nobody is righteous unless they obey the law of sin and death.
And as the law requires perfect obedience, then we see that without perfect obedience to the law you seem to be claiming we're unrighteous.
However, there seems to be variations offered by some legalists on what the law requires, in spite of the fact that there are no scriptures to back up such doctrines claiming that near enough is good enough under the law..
For example, Laodicea described how what level of obedience to the law is expected of us by God being dependent on what "light" we are given. Do you agree with Laodicea on this?
So to help me understand your doctrine, are you suggesting that any SDA who obeys the law half the time is half righteous? Or is their righteousness dependent on what God expects as a minimum standard of obedience to the law given the amount of "light" they have received?
In Christ, Christians are righteous (Rom 4:5), holy (Rom 11:16), perfected (Heb 10:14), complete (Col 2:10). This contradicts your description of a Christian being crippled if they do not obey the law.
You described in an earlier post that one is not righteous if they do not obey the law.
You confirm that claim here as well likening anyone who does not obey the law as being like a cripple.
Clearly you see that nobody is righteous unless they obey the law of sin and death.
And as the law requires perfect obedience, then we see that without perfect obedience to the law you seem to be claiming we're unrighteous.
However, there seems to be variations offered by some legalists on what the law requires, in spite of the fact that there are no scriptures to back up such doctrines claiming that near enough is good enough under the law..
For example, Laodicea described how what level of obedience to the law is expected of us by God being dependent on what "light" we are given. Do you agree with Laodicea on this?
So to help me understand your doctrine, are you suggesting that any SDA who obeys the law half the time is half righteous? Or is their righteousness dependent on what God expects as a minimum standard of obedience to the law given the amount of "light" they have received?
P
i just think we need to be careful with this, Matt...
it seems to imply that the nation of Israel, any of its inhabitants, ever kept the Law.
the Lawgiver is the only Law keeper.
Christ Jesus kept the Law perfectly for us, knowing we were incapable of ever doing it.
it's why the apostle Paul waxes eloquent in Ephesians 1 about what Christ accomplished for sinners.
in HIM we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing.
~ellie
it seems to imply that the nation of Israel, any of its inhabitants, ever kept the Law.
the Lawgiver is the only Law keeper.
Christ Jesus kept the Law perfectly for us, knowing we were incapable of ever doing it.
it's why the apostle Paul waxes eloquent in Ephesians 1 about what Christ accomplished for sinners.
in HIM we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing.
~ellie
i just think we need to be careful with this, Matt...
it seems to imply that the nation of Israel, any of its inhabitants, ever kept the Law.
the Lawgiver is the only Law keeper.
Christ Jesus kept the Law perfectly for us, knowing we were incapable of ever doing it.
it's why the apostle Paul waxes eloquent in Ephesians 1 about what Christ accomplished for sinners.
in HIM we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing.
~ellie
it seems to imply that the nation of Israel, any of its inhabitants, ever kept the Law.
the Lawgiver is the only Law keeper.
Christ Jesus kept the Law perfectly for us, knowing we were incapable of ever doing it.
it's why the apostle Paul waxes eloquent in Ephesians 1 about what Christ accomplished for sinners.
in HIM we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing.
~ellie
And if so, did they keep it?
"Now the children of Israel, while they were in the wilderness were disobedient, and by their disobedience salvation was gained by the nations." These words came to me in a dream about forty years ago. I believe I understood and understand what is being said, and it is wonderful. Praise Yahweh, God, amen.
yes,
and no.
God's Law stands as the Standard of perfect righteousness.
do you think any of us meets that Standard?
i'm off to chat up our 19 yo.
and then to get some sleep.
see you tomorrow, Lord willing.
i hope you have good rest, too.
and no.
God's Law stands as the Standard of perfect righteousness.
do you think any of us meets that Standard?
i'm off to chat up our 19 yo.
and then to get some sleep.
see you tomorrow, Lord willing.
i hope you have good rest, too.
It was the same scenario for Israel, though. And God still called them to obey Him.
And that is the same scenario for us today.
Have a great night, and tell your 19 yo I said "Hi".
L
Here is a list of the RICHES the believer has IN CHRIST from A to Z. This list has NOTHING to do with keeping the law. Perhaps it would be better for the born again believer to focus on these RICHES IN CHRIST rather that what blessings for trying to keep the law....which NOBODY is able to keep I repeat...this list has NOTHING to do with blessings for keeping the law. The law can only condemn if not kept according to Scripture (Deuteronomy 27:26; Galatians 3:10-13; James 2:10).
THE BELIEVER'S RICHES IN CHRIST FROM A TO Z
Accepted in the beloved (Ephesians 1:6)
Born of God (1John 5:1)
Crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20)
Delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)
Enriched in everything in Him (1 Corinthians 1:5)
Forgiven for Christ's sake (Ephesians 4:32)
Grounded in love (Ephesians 3:17)
Hid with Christ (Colossians 3:3)
Instructed in the way of the Lord (Acts 18:25)
Justified by His grace (Titus 3:7)
Kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5)
Led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)
Made nigh by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)
Nourished in the words of faith (1Timothy 4:6)
Ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48)
Perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14)
Quickened together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5)
Redeemed from the curse of the law (Galatians 3:13)
Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13)
Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Colossians 1:13)
Unreproveable in His sight (Colossians 1:22)
Victorious through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:57)
Washed from our sins in his own blood (Revelation 1:5)
Yearned over by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26)
Zealous of good works (Titus 2:14)
"Good works" is the OUTWORKING OF GOD'S GRACE....not in the keeping of the law. God gives the believer day-to-day victory over sin, Satan, and the world. We are purchased, brought out, and released to a life of spiritual freedom in Christ. (Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:18; Hebrews 9:12).
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
THE BELIEVER'S RICHES IN CHRIST FROM A TO Z
Accepted in the beloved (Ephesians 1:6)
Born of God (1John 5:1)
Crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20)
Delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)
Enriched in everything in Him (1 Corinthians 1:5)
Forgiven for Christ's sake (Ephesians 4:32)
Grounded in love (Ephesians 3:17)
Hid with Christ (Colossians 3:3)
Instructed in the way of the Lord (Acts 18:25)
Justified by His grace (Titus 3:7)
Kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5)
Led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)
Made nigh by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)
Nourished in the words of faith (1Timothy 4:6)
Ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48)
Perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14)
Quickened together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5)
Redeemed from the curse of the law (Galatians 3:13)
Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13)
Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Colossians 1:13)
Unreproveable in His sight (Colossians 1:22)
Victorious through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:57)
Washed from our sins in his own blood (Revelation 1:5)
Yearned over by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26)
Zealous of good works (Titus 2:14)
"Good works" is the OUTWORKING OF GOD'S GRACE....not in the keeping of the law. God gives the believer day-to-day victory over sin, Satan, and the world. We are purchased, brought out, and released to a life of spiritual freedom in Christ. (Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:18; Hebrews 9:12).
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
L
Why do you keep reverting back to what the blessings WERE for keeping the law? We live according to New Testament and our rule of life as believers in Christ is not the law, but grace. Why are PAST blessings more important than the OUTWORKING OF GOD'S GRACE IN THE BELIEVER in the present?
Unless the law is kept ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, not according to which of the 613 commandments of the law we will keep to receive blessings by doing so, THERE WILL BE NO BLESSINGS...ONLY CONDEMNATION.
What Does the O.T. Law Require? Galatians 3:10 speaks of a two-fold requirement:
(1) continual obedience, and (2) obedience in all things (Deuteronomy 11:22; 27:26; James 2:10). This is why no man can have righteousness through the law; as sinners we cannot fulfill its high demands.
Unless the law is kept ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, not according to which of the 613 commandments of the law we will keep to receive blessings by doing so, THERE WILL BE NO BLESSINGS...ONLY CONDEMNATION.
What Does the O.T. Law Require? Galatians 3:10 speaks of a two-fold requirement:
(1) continual obedience, and (2) obedience in all things (Deuteronomy 11:22; 27:26; James 2:10). This is why no man can have righteousness through the law; as sinners we cannot fulfill its high demands.
1 John 3:22-24King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
[SUP]24[/SUP]And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
I belive we all can agree with this God Bless you all in Jesus mighty name amen
[video=youtube;JdF9YmSGamQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdF9YmSGamQ[/video]
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
[SUP]24[/SUP]And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
I belive we all can agree with this God Bless you all in Jesus mighty name amen
[video=youtube;JdF9YmSGamQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdF9YmSGamQ[/video]
B
How would some of you rewrite the following passage (in bold) as it pertains to the NT believer who has trusted in Christ. Please show were that change has been made and confirmed in the NT scripture including the gospels when Christ was alive and walked among men under the law. If I am right the part that is not in bold is what you want to keep and apply to the NT believer.
Exodus 31:14-18
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
If you want to apply only what is not in bold, show in the gospels where Jesus separates the law of the Sabbath and takes away the condemnation of breaking the Sabbath and if you can't show that then what does that tell you about your understanding of the Sabbath? If the keeping of the Sabbath was a law to be kept, their must also be some form of consequence for not keeping it as commanded by law. Keeping the Sabbath by law was a sign and not a privilege of grace, so how does anyone make keeping the Sabbath a privilege of grace? Are some of you telling us that the law of the 10 commandments, including the Sabbath, which were under the condemnation of the law are now kept under the commendation of grace because of Christ?
What happens to you if you do not keep the Sabbath? Are you excused and given grace for that? Does the same thing happen to you if you commit adultery, or if you kill, or if you take the Lord's name in vain? Does the same thing happen to you if you steal or bear false witness against your neighbor or covet their house or wife or anything they possess? If the 10 commandments was given so that the people would sin not, then if they break any of the commandments including the Sabbath then they have sinned and is their wages for sin or not? How can any of you say that you keep the Sabbath under grace when if you break it you have sinned against and transgressed the law, God's law?
If some of you believe that the Sabbath was only given to the Jews, is it also true for the rest of the nine commandments given by God to Moses on Sinai? Could it be that the law was specifically given to a nation of people whom God had delivered from Egypt to be a people He could call His own? You do remember what (Rom 2:14,15) says about the Gentiles?
Exodus 31:14-18
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
If you want to apply only what is not in bold, show in the gospels where Jesus separates the law of the Sabbath and takes away the condemnation of breaking the Sabbath and if you can't show that then what does that tell you about your understanding of the Sabbath? If the keeping of the Sabbath was a law to be kept, their must also be some form of consequence for not keeping it as commanded by law. Keeping the Sabbath by law was a sign and not a privilege of grace, so how does anyone make keeping the Sabbath a privilege of grace? Are some of you telling us that the law of the 10 commandments, including the Sabbath, which were under the condemnation of the law are now kept under the commendation of grace because of Christ?
What happens to you if you do not keep the Sabbath? Are you excused and given grace for that? Does the same thing happen to you if you commit adultery, or if you kill, or if you take the Lord's name in vain? Does the same thing happen to you if you steal or bear false witness against your neighbor or covet their house or wife or anything they possess? If the 10 commandments was given so that the people would sin not, then if they break any of the commandments including the Sabbath then they have sinned and is their wages for sin or not? How can any of you say that you keep the Sabbath under grace when if you break it you have sinned against and transgressed the law, God's law?
If some of you believe that the Sabbath was only given to the Jews, is it also true for the rest of the nine commandments given by God to Moses on Sinai? Could it be that the law was specifically given to a nation of people whom God had delivered from Egypt to be a people He could call His own? You do remember what (Rom 2:14,15) says about the Gentiles?
Does it matter: John 7:19
“Did not Moses give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”
“Did not Moses give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”
Linda, I'm just trying to draw out what God said about the Law when He gave it. What did He say the reasons for it were? What were the specific commands? And in this case, what were the specific blessings and curses of obedience of disobedience.
I'm not saying they're more important than God's grace.
I'm not saying they're more important than God's grace.
L
You continue to dig through the Law in order to "find blessings"...that Law was fulfilled at the Cross. God said that the purpose of the Law was to show us how sinful we are and that our righteousness could not be attained by keeping the Law.
Have you forsaken the fountain of living waters and hewed out broken cisterns that can hold no water. Why not "draw out" from "the fountain of living waters" and cease hewing out "broken cisterns" that can hold no water?
Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
Then why are you so adamant about "drawing out" water from broken cisterns?
Have you forsaken the fountain of living waters and hewed out broken cisterns that can hold no water. Why not "draw out" from "the fountain of living waters" and cease hewing out "broken cisterns" that can hold no water?
Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
Then why are you so adamant about "drawing out" water from broken cisterns?