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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#61
Yes, big difference. The NIV and NASB are much more clear. "Hold the truth in unrighteousness" is 16th century bafflegab. "Suppress the truth by their wickedness" is specific and clear to the 21st century ear.

Can any human change the truth of God? Can any human add to or remove from the truth of God? No. I maintain that the KJV wording is therefore inferior. I see nothing in your defense other than your opinion.

I suggest we leave it at that, unless you want to acknowledge that your opinion really doesn't carry any objective weight. ;)
I.ll leave it for those that may read for themselves and understand.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
1,998
474
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#62
Yes, big difference. The NIV and NASB are much more clear. "Hold the truth in unrighteousness" is 16th century bafflegab. "Suppress the truth by their wickedness" is specific and clear to the 21st century ear.

Can any human change the truth of God? Can any human add to or remove from the truth of God? No. I maintain that the KJV wording is therefore inferior. I see nothing in your defense other than your opinion.

I suggest we leave it at that, unless you want to acknowledge that your opinion really doesn't carry any objective weight. ;)[/
18¶For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who HOLD the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be KNOWN of God is MANIFEST IN them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being UNDERSTOOD the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE
21Because that, when they KNEW God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And CHANGED the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24¶Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who CHANGED the truth OF God INTO a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26¶For THIS CAUSE God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did CHANGE the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28¶And even as THEY DID NOT LIKE TO RETAIN GOD IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who KNOWING the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Get this wrong and its like navigation ,one degree off at the beginning and you wind up miles off course .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
1,998
474
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#63
Yes, big difference. The NIV and NASB are much more clear. "Hold the truth in unrighteousness" is 16th century bafflegab. "Suppress the truth by their wickedness" is specific and clear to the 21st century ear.

Can any human change the truth of God? Can any human add to or remove from the truth of God? No. I maintain that the KJV wording is therefore inferior. I see nothing in your defense other than your opinion.

I suggest we leave it at that, unless you want to acknowledge that your opinion really doesn't carry any objective weight. ;)
18¶For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who HOLD the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be KNOWN of God is MANIFEST IN them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being UNDERSTOOD the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE
21Because that, when they KNEW God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And CHANGED the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24¶Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who CHANGED the truth OF God INTO a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26¶For THIS CAUSE God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did CHANGE the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28¶And even as THEY DID NOT LIKE TO RETAIN GOD IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who KNOWING the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Get this wrong and its like navigation ,one degree off at the beginning and you wind up miles off course .

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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,827
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#64
Yes, I caught that. I think "exchange" is a better word for what is happening. Truth is truth, and the word "of" can mean "belonging to" or "pertaining to"; I think it is the latter in this case.
Is it not pertaining to who it belongs ?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,827
1,506
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#65
Yes, big difference. The NIV and NASB are much more clear. "Hold the truth in unrighteousness" is 16th century bafflegab. "Suppress the truth by their wickedness" is specific and clear to the 21st century ear.

Can any human change the truth of God? Can any human add to or remove from the truth of God? No. I maintain that the KJV wording is therefore inferior. I see nothing in your defense other than your opinion.

I suggest we leave it at that, unless you want to acknowledge that your opinion really doesn't carry any objective weight. ;)

No difference. They "Hold the truth in unrighteousness" . . . By suppressing it with their wickedness.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,133
2,593
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#67
Yes, big difference. The NIV and NASB are much more clear. "Hold the truth in unrighteousness" is 16th century bafflegab. "Suppress the truth by their wickedness" is specific and clear to the 21st century ear.

Can any human change the truth of God? Can any human add to or remove from the truth of God? No. I maintain that the KJV wording is therefore inferior. I see nothing in your defense other than your opinion.

I suggest we leave it at that, unless you want to acknowledge that your opinion really doesn't carry any objective weight. ;)
King James version is my favorite but, I do like to cross reference with other translations- the Amplified version is also one I enjoy. :love:(y)
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,827
1,506
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#68
And wouldn't it be amazing if your church ( my church also ) was reported all around the world for your faith .

Yes brothers living in unity of the same spirit of faith according as it is written. Christ's in us not of us. But there must be division or heresies. The kingdom of God is not of the corrupted temporal things seen. But are of the eternal things not seen. Things of faith, things of God

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

The mutual faith of Christ that worked in Paul giving Him a desire to go, sending Him with the word of God's prophecy. . It worked in the heart of others .Two fold gifts... blessing the speaker and the one that hears and believes God not seen.. Two witnesses of God. Never self edifying. Two by two.

Romans1: 10-12 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

The faith of Christ, the power of God working in two. Or two and there million that do gather together under the power of the faith of Christ that does work in us .
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,133
2,593
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#69
26¶For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Paul is speaking of what happens when a person knows the Truth but, has no love for the Truth - instead they love to do evil and will not follow Christ. God does not force anyone to love Him, He will give us up to even vile affections which is wrong sexual and relational affections with ourselves and others.

In this case it would be women committing sexual acts with other women which is against nature - the way we were born - our created purpose.

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Paul also addresses the men having sexual relations with other men which is evil in the sight of God and they will receive the recompense which I think is that they become blinded and never get to experience the beauty of a man and woman in love and sexual relations that give life and harmony with each other and God and produce offspring......

28¶And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
They obviously had knowledge of God but, chose not to retain it so, God gave them over to a reprobate mind which has no knowledge of Truth and they commit all kinds of sexual perversion - not just men with men but, all kinds of sexual impurities and acts of unrighteousness.

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Paul is just listing all the various kinds of impurities/unrighteousness acts that a person does with a reprobate mind which are......

fornication = sex without marriage covenant
wickedness = evil motives of their heart
covetousness = envy and jealousy of what others have
maliciousness = evil acts from a heart filled with hatred
full of envy = total self absorbed and has to always be the best
murder = a heart filled with hatred that desires to kill

debate = always argumentative, refuses to agree with anyone
deceit = they have a lying tongue - not able to speak the truth
malignity = consumed with death, there's no life in them
whisperers = talking secretly to stir up strife and division


30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Paul continues the list.......

31Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Paul continues the list......

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them
Paul says they know the judgment of God and know they will be given the death penalty but, will not hearken to the voice of God and they enjoy being around others they are evil just like them.....all the while......death approaches.

-----------------------------
My thoughts - God has given everyone a choice........Life or Death and it is God's Will that we choose Life. I choose Life!


In the Garden of Eden there was a Tree of Life and a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that would kill you. Adam and Eve had the same choice........Life or Death. We need to learn from their mistake! We need to choose Life! :love:(y)
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,133
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#70
That concludes Romans Chapter 1........everybody ready for Romans Chapter 2 (5 verses at a time)!
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
1,998
474
83
#72
Romans chapter 2
1¶Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
 

Pilgrimshope

Active member
Sep 2, 2020
241
80
28
#73
Anyone want to learn bible? Let's learn and together, let's be friends :)! Let me know~

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63

I would love to have a thread that was about studying what the scriptures actually do say and coming to a better understanding . Would take people looking to learn and also share
 

Pilgrimshope

Active member
Sep 2, 2020
241
80
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#74
Romans chapter 2
1¶Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
you know what I was thinking about here ?

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,656
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#75
Extend mercy and it shall be extended to you.
 

Pilgrimshope

Active member
Sep 2, 2020
241
80
28
#76
Extend mercy and it shall be extended to you.
By whatever measure you give mercy to others it will be measured to you again running over . Important because of who said it

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;

whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭

this also supports the next section of verses in Romans.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s so important to accept the things Jesus preached and they are really wonderful like that one teaching there of mercy
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,656
4,149
113
#77
My time here is fairly full, and I have seen much, however never so much evil as this day.

My heart goes out to young folks everywhere that they be blessed with all strength from our God, especially with love, faith, hope patience and longsuffering. That latter is very specials, longsuffering. We must not rush to anger nor act upon n our anger other than to be righteously so.

God bless the young ones every where and do not despair of your works here. The eternal joy more than compensates for our brief suffering in this age.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,133
2,593
113
#78
Romans chapter 2
1¶Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Paul is addressing the unrighteous act of being judgmental towards others. All of us are guilty and have no right to judge according to the flesh. The judgments we pass on each other are not true justice - in the flesh we pass judgment based on wrong perception because the heart of our flesh is prideful and blind. We end up condemning others, only to realize we do the same thing and are just as condemned as the ones we condemn.

2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Paul is stating with confidence that God's judgment is according to truth because God cannot be blinded by pride. God knows when we get in our flesh and get judgmental with each other because God can see our hearts and know our thoughts.

3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Paul is letting us know that none of us will escape God's judgment on the works of our flesh. When we allow our flesh to be judgmental against others, it is God's judgment that we will reap what we sow and be just as judged and condemn as the ones we judge.


4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
In our flesh, we despise God being merciful to someone that we think God should discipline. But, this is only true in our flesh, in our spirit we would rejoice in the riches of God's goodness, forbearance and longsuffering towards sinners because God has given us the same for our sins which leaded us to repentance and we would encourage the sinners to repent in a gentle non-judgmental spirit with no condemnation.

God has set us free and we would want to set others free, too!

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Paul is trying to wake us up....meaning he wants us to realize that if we continue being judgmental in our flesh of others, it will harden our hearts- making our hearts unable to feel shame or regret and we will be sowing massive amounts of bad seeds of wrath towards others and will surely reap wrath from all the people we have unrighteously judged and condemned for this is the righteous judgment of God that we reap what we have sown.

Dear Lord Jesus Christ,

Forgive us for being judgmental in our flesh towards You, each other and even ourselves. Open our eyes, hearts and minds to see, know and understand what You see, know and understand about others, and ourselves........help us to love and walk by the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We love You, amen! :love:(y)
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
5,133
2,593
113
#79
Romans 2:6-10 (NKJV)
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Gentile;

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
1,998
474
83
#80
Romans 2:6-10 (NKJV)
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Gentile;

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.
interested in anyones thoughts on these verses ,especially verse 7 ? on the surface it sounds like we can achieve eternal life through doing good ect ? but we know Paul goes on to take the legs out from under that option ?