Bible Translation Discussion Place
- Thread starter KJV1611
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
how about not selectively editing Thayer's?
καπηλεύω; (κάπηλος, i. e.
a. an inn-keeper, especially a vintner;
b. a petty retailer, a huckster, pedler; cf. Sir. 26:29 οὐ δικαιωθήσεται κάπηλος ἀπό ἁμαρτίας);
a. to be a retailer, to peddle;
b. with the accusative of the thing, "to make money by selling anything; to get sordid gain by dealing in anything, to do a thing for base gain" (οἱ τά μαθήματα περιαγοντες κατά πόλεις καί πωλοῦντες καί καπηλεύοντες, Plato, Prot., p. 313 d.; μάχην, Aeschylus the Sept. 551 (545); Latincauponari bellum, i. e. to fight for gain, trade in war, Ennius quoted in Cicero, offic. 1, 12, 38; ἑταιραν τό τῆς ὥρας ἄνθος καπηλευουσαν, Philo de caritat. § 14, cf. leg. ad Gaium § 30, and many other examples in other authors). Hence, some suppose that καπηλεύειν τόν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ in 2 Corinthians 2:17 is equivalent to to trade in the word of God, i. e. to try to get base gain by teaching divine truth. But as pedlers were in the habit of adulterating their commodities for the sake of gain (οἱ κάπηλοί σου μίσγουσι τόν οἶνον ὕδατι, Isaiah 1:22 the Sept.; κάπηλοί, οἱ τόν οἶνον κεραννύντες, Pollux, onomast. 7, 193; οἱ φιλοσοφοι ἀποδιδονται τά μαθήματα, ὥσπερ οἱ κάπηλοί, κερασάμενοι γέ οἱ πολλοί καί δολωσαντες καί κακομετρουντες, Lucian. Hermot. 59), καπηλεύειν τί was also used as synonymous with to corrupt, to adulterate (Themistius, or. 21, p. 247, Hard. edition says that the false philosophers τό θειοτατον τῶν ἀνθρωπίνων ἀγαθῶν κιβδηλεύειν τέ καί αἰσχύνειν καί καπηλεύειν); and most interpreters rightly decide in favor of this meaning (on account of the context) in 2 Corinthians 2:17, cf. δολουν τόν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ, 2 Corinthians 4:2. (Cf. Trench, § lxii.)
the part - the bulk - you left out makes it very clear that the literal meaning of this word is peddling/making merchandise.
then, in a very subjective and apologetic-to-kjv way, Thayer ceases being informative and speculatively says that "by context" it ought to be purposefully mistranslated.
so Thayer says the kjv has an arguably idiomatic mistranslation, but definitely not a literal one here.
i think i trust the literal Word better.
cf. 2 Peter 2:1-3, Ezekiel 28:16, Matthew 21:13
compare this:
Peter says there will be "many" with feigned words making merchandise of you.
Paul similarly says they are not like "many" are, making merchandise out of the gospel.
Thayer's interjected opinion is that it's best to mistranslate the word as 'corrupt' but as Peter describes, these false teachers use 'feigned' words in order to make merchandise. to adulterate in order for gain, which is, to peddle dishonestly: that is the exact meaning of the idiomatic sense of the literal word, and the context of 2 Corinthians 1:17 makes it quite clear that the merchandising going on is of the dishonest sort.
Thayer's argues to compare this verse:
KJV has a weak argument here, IMO, and the argument is at best based on not literally translating but instead taking liberty with the text in order to project a particular subjective interpretation. even that subjective interpretation is not about 'changing' the goods being peddled, as it were, but about misrepresenting them, their use and value, so it's not very convincing to me in any case that it's in any way 'better' to mistranslate it as 'corrupt'
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you: which privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that hath bought them, and bring upon themselves swift damnation.
And many shall follow their destructions, by whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you, whose condemnation long since resteth not, and their destruction slumbereth not.
(2 Peter 2:1-3)
Peter says there will be "many" with feigned words making merchandise of you.
Paul similarly says they are not like "many" are, making merchandise out of the gospel.
Thayer's interjected opinion is that it's best to mistranslate the word as 'corrupt' but as Peter describes, these false teachers use 'feigned' words in order to make merchandise. to adulterate in order for gain, which is, to peddle dishonestly: that is the exact meaning of the idiomatic sense of the literal word, and the context of 2 Corinthians 1:17 makes it quite clear that the merchandising going on is of the dishonest sort.
Thayer's argues to compare this verse:
Therefore, seeing that we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not:
But have cast from us the cloaks of shame, and walk not in craftiness, neither handle we the word of God deceitfully: but in declaration of the truth we approve ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
(2 Corinthians 4:1-2)
here Paul says they do not walk in craftiness - which is, they do not seek their own gain, i.e. they don't peddle. continuing, in verse 5 he says they are our servants for the sake of the gospel. this supports the original English translation of 2:17 just as much, if not more than king James's, especially when taking into account that Peter expresses the same sentiment about the same people in terms of salesmanship. KJV has a weak argument here, IMO, and the argument is at best based on not literally translating but instead taking liberty with the text in order to project a particular subjective interpretation. even that subjective interpretation is not about 'changing' the goods being peddled, as it were, but about misrepresenting them, their use and value, so it's not very convincing to me in any case that it's in any way 'better' to mistranslate it as 'corrupt'
-
1
- Show all
i quoted an English Bible that predated the 1611 KJV by over 50 years. that's not "modern" relative to the KJV.
it's the KJV which is "modern" relative to the Geneva Bible. the KJV changed the translation of the GNV here.
Thayer, as i took pains to show, but which is obvious if you don't selectively edit the entry, interjects subjective opinion after clearly giving 'making merchandise/peddling' as the proper, literal definition of the word.
Thayer is 'modern' - early 1900's.
Vulgate:
peddling.
that's from 405 AD.
over one thousand two hundred years prior to king James.
king James is "modern"
it's the KJV which is "modern" relative to the Geneva Bible. the KJV changed the translation of the GNV here.
Thayer, as i took pains to show, but which is obvious if you don't selectively edit the entry, interjects subjective opinion after clearly giving 'making merchandise/peddling' as the proper, literal definition of the word.
Thayer is 'modern' - early 1900's.
Vulgate:
non enim sumus sicut plurimi, adulterantes verbum Dei, sed ex sinceritate, sed sicut ex Deo, coram Deo, in Christo loquimur.
guess what "adulterantes" means in English? peddling.
that's from 405 AD.
over one thousand two hundred years prior to king James.
king James is "modern"
-
1
- Show all
Vincent's Word Studies
καπηλεύοντες
Only here in the New Testament. From κάπηλος a huckster or peddler; also a tavern-keeper. The κάπηλοι formed a distinct class among the Greek dealers, distinguished from the ἐυπόροι merchants or wholesale dealers. So Plato: “Is not retailer ( καπήλους ) the term which is applied to those who sit in the market-place buying and selling, while those who wander from one city to another are called merchants?” (“Republic,” 371; compare “Statesman,” 260) The term included dealers in victuals and all sorts of wares, but was especially applied to retailers of wine, with whom adulteration and short measure were matters of course. Galen speaks of wine-dealers καπηλεύοντες τοὺς οἴνους playing tricks with their wines; mixing the new, harsh wines, so as to make them pass for old. These not only sold their wares in the market, but had καπηλεῖα wine-shops all over the town, where it was not thought respectable to take refreshments. The whole trade was greatly despised. In Thebes no one who had sold in the market within the last ten years was allowed to take part in the government. So Plato, speaking of the evils of luxury and poverty: “What remedy can a city of sense find against this disease? In the first place, they must have as few retail traders as possible” (“Laws,” 919. The whole passage is well worth reading). The moral application of the term was familiar in classical Greek. Lucian says: “The philosophers deal out their instructions like hucksters.” Plato: “Those who carry about the wares of knowledge, and make the round of the cities, and sell or retail them to any customer who is in want of them, praise them all alike; though I should not wonder if many of them were really ignorant of their effect upon the soul; and their customers equally ignorant, unless he who buys of them happens to be a physician of the soul” (“Protagoras,” 313). Paul here uses the term of those who trade in the word of God, adulterating it for the purpose of gain or popularity. Compare 1 Timothy 6:5, Rev. In the “Teaching of the Twelve Apostles” occurs the word χριστέμπορος a Christ-monger (ch. xii., 5).
καπηλεύοντες
Only here in the New Testament. From κάπηλος a huckster or peddler; also a tavern-keeper. The κάπηλοι formed a distinct class among the Greek dealers, distinguished from the ἐυπόροι merchants or wholesale dealers. So Plato: “Is not retailer ( καπήλους ) the term which is applied to those who sit in the market-place buying and selling, while those who wander from one city to another are called merchants?” (“Republic,” 371; compare “Statesman,” 260) The term included dealers in victuals and all sorts of wares, but was especially applied to retailers of wine, with whom adulteration and short measure were matters of course. Galen speaks of wine-dealers καπηλεύοντες τοὺς οἴνους playing tricks with their wines; mixing the new, harsh wines, so as to make them pass for old. These not only sold their wares in the market, but had καπηλεῖα wine-shops all over the town, where it was not thought respectable to take refreshments. The whole trade was greatly despised. In Thebes no one who had sold in the market within the last ten years was allowed to take part in the government. So Plato, speaking of the evils of luxury and poverty: “What remedy can a city of sense find against this disease? In the first place, they must have as few retail traders as possible” (“Laws,” 919. The whole passage is well worth reading). The moral application of the term was familiar in classical Greek. Lucian says: “The philosophers deal out their instructions like hucksters.” Plato: “Those who carry about the wares of knowledge, and make the round of the cities, and sell or retail them to any customer who is in want of them, praise them all alike; though I should not wonder if many of them were really ignorant of their effect upon the soul; and their customers equally ignorant, unless he who buys of them happens to be a physician of the soul” (“Protagoras,” 313). Paul here uses the term of those who trade in the word of God, adulterating it for the purpose of gain or popularity. Compare 1 Timothy 6:5, Rev. In the “Teaching of the Twelve Apostles” occurs the word χριστέμπορος a Christ-monger (ch. xii., 5).
They did it for the the same reason they changed all of the other several hundred words they changed, they did it to bring more clarity to the verse or passage.
The word of God ISN'T FOR SALE, it can not be "PEDDLED", it can not be COPYRIGHTED. That means that any bible THAT is COPYRIGHTED is a CORRUPT VERSION of the word of God and that, is what gets peddled.
The word of God ISN'T FOR SALE, it can not be "PEDDLED", it can not be COPYRIGHTED. That means that any bible THAT is COPYRIGHTED is a CORRUPT VERSION of the word of God and that, is what gets peddled.
L
The KJV is crown copyrighted. In other words the Queen of England holds that copy right.
While it dont mean much today, as it's not enforced, in the 16, and 1700s it was crucial in foisting it upon everyone.
I guess for you having a copy right on foot notes and illustrations, and maps, is a horrific sin, but forcing by penalty of law and the use of cruel harsh punishment, even death to impose your revision on people is just fine. That's a strange sense of values there, if you ask me.
Let's see, in order to force our book on you we will not penalize you for making copies, but we will murder you if you use another version, vs we worked hard on this translation, and made many foot notes and references don't copy my work; ie footnotes and references, and claim it as your own for profit, but if you ask I'll let you use it.
I think the former is much worse.
While it dont mean much today, as it's not enforced, in the 16, and 1700s it was crucial in foisting it upon everyone.
I guess for you having a copy right on foot notes and illustrations, and maps, is a horrific sin, but forcing by penalty of law and the use of cruel harsh punishment, even death to impose your revision on people is just fine. That's a strange sense of values there, if you ask me.
Let's see, in order to force our book on you we will not penalize you for making copies, but we will murder you if you use another version, vs we worked hard on this translation, and made many foot notes and references don't copy my work; ie footnotes and references, and claim it as your own for profit, but if you ask I'll let you use it.
I think the former is much worse.
In general Copyright law is 50 years after the authors death...in the Bibles case it would be the editors or publishers, after that it will be in the public domain, so those 'modern' translations will soon be in public doman once their time is up.
KJV being over 400 years old since first publication has no copyright. Everyone is free to distribute it, which is how it should be.
Ive heard some bibles published under something called the 'lockman foundation' which Ive heard had links to freemasonry. Im not certain though so dont quote me, find out for yourself.
KJV being over 400 years old since first publication has no copyright. Everyone is free to distribute it, which is how it should be.
Ive heard some bibles published under something called the 'lockman foundation' which Ive heard had links to freemasonry. Im not certain though so dont quote me, find out for yourself.
Dont think what King James directed was 'foisted' upon the translators they were already translating the Bible way before King James officially authorised it. If you read the preface that was the version king james endorsed, it wass offered to King James and he chose that one James didnt actually didnt have much to do with the translators themselves.
Sorry your premise is wrong.
Sorry your premise is wrong.
Changing topic slightly, which audio version of the Bible do people listen to, if you have an audio version?
Who narrates it? For KJV people recommend one narrated by Alexander scourby.
But theres plenty others. Theres now a Kiwi audio version not sure which translation but Ive seen it in the shops. If going for an audio version what do you look for? Im after one that doesnt skip any parts, is easy to listen to with no distracting music, clear diction and not read too fast or slow. No monotones.
Who narrates it? For KJV people recommend one narrated by Alexander scourby.
But theres plenty others. Theres now a Kiwi audio version not sure which translation but Ive seen it in the shops. If going for an audio version what do you look for? Im after one that doesnt skip any parts, is easy to listen to with no distracting music, clear diction and not read too fast or slow. No monotones.
-
1
- Show all