Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[Nehemiah6]

Hmm.

How do calvinists explain away "God wants all men to be saved"? Pray for all men? Including kings etc.? I heard many calvinists say it just means all kinds of people because it tells us first to pray for kings and those in authority. But that is just ridicilous, it doesnt say ALL KINDS of men, it just says all men. And that is consistent with Jesus dying for "the world" and "Not for ours only, but the whole world" "not willing any perish" etc.

That is just another example of DELIBERATELY DISTORTING Scripture to accommodate the doctrines of men. A very serious sin.

 

[justpassinthrough]

This does not change the fact that Peter was talking to the elect, verse2, referring to them as having already been born again.

Yes Peter is teaching people who are already born again, and is reminding them of how they cleansed their heart by obeying the Gospel.


And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...
1 Peter 1:17-21


The Point -

They way we are saved and cleansed from our sins is by obeying the Gospel.



JPT

 

[CS1]

I can see you don't know your Bible at all so let me give you the ABC baby steps. The gift of salvation is a complete package deal, that God ONLY gives to His elect. One of the components in that package is the gift of obedience.

You will never obey God while you remain dead in trespasses and sins, God must first give you the gift of salvation which brings you to life so you can begin to obey all the necessary things to effect your salvation

maybe this thread should be closed down because baby steps are the correction

 

[CS1]

I will be providing the recommendation to close this thread and banned those usual suspects who have insulted people who disagree with them. Thank you God there are some on both sides so it will be fair .

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes Peter is teaching people who are already born again, and is reminding them of how they cleansed their heart by obeying the Gospel.


And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...
1 Peter 1:17-21


The Point -

They way we are saved and cleansed from our sins is by obeying the Gospel.



JPT

Cleansing our souls by our obedience is not talking about getting eternal salvation. After we have been regenerated and yield to the desires of our fleshly nature and sin, when we repent and obey God's commands we have purified our souls from that sin. If being obedient to the gospel saves us eternally, it would be eternal salvation by works (depending on man's actions).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I added born again?


How can I add something to 1 Peter 1:22-23 that is already there?


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


JPT

Sorry, The 23rd verse was on the following page, and I overlooked it, my apologies. The 23rd verse further reinforces the fact that they had already been born again, by using the word HAVING, being in the past tense.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes Peter is teaching people who are already born again, and is reminding them of how they cleansed their heart by obeying the Gospel.


And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...
1 Peter 1:17-21


The Point -

They way we are saved and cleansed from our sins is by obeying the Gospel.



JPT

I might have misunderstood your statement. If you are referring that we are delivered (saved here in time) from a sin by obeying the gospel, I agree with you, but if you are referring that we are saved (delivered) eternally by obeying the gospel, then I disagree with you.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

This is a failure to understand God's omniscients. God foreknowing does not rule out free will. But it does rule out you being able to stake some claim on some action you did that gave you salvation. He made you knowing full well what you would do.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

This is a failure to understand God's omniscients. God foreknowing does not rule out free will. But it does rule out you being able to stake some claim on some action you did that gave you salvation. He made you knowing full well what you would do.

If you are referring to God's foreknowledge, then read Ps 53:2-3.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Which does not mean that he didn't know it already.
Are you trying to tell me that God isn't omniscient? Him that sees the end from the beginning? That Christ wasn't slain from the foundation of the earth?
Because David said God looked to see? That would be a poor interpretation. I always knew what my children were doing yet still looked to see, and behold they were doing exactly what I knew they were doing. Which is why I had my corrective plan already in mind.
I am certain beyond any doubt God knows better than I.

 

[LPT]

How did it become Calvinism vs. Arminianism? What was the debate before the 15,000's or so? Were people saved before they knew they were not saved?.... Is that question plain? ...lol

Good question Im not much on titles kind of meaningless to me, not sure what you mean about the 15,000 or so?

Does God know who is yes, does God give people a chance to choose Jesus yes, thats about all Ive got to say about that.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

This is a failure to understand God's omniscients. God foreknowing does not rule out free will. But it does rule out you being able to stake some claim on some action you did that gave you salvation. He made you knowing full well what you would do.

I am not understanding what your accusation of me is. What "action" are you claiming that you are able to take to give you eternal salvation (deliverance)?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Which does not mean that he didn't know it already.
Are you trying to tell me that God isn't omniscient? Him that sees the end from the beginning? That Christ wasn't slain from the foundation of the earth?
Because David said God looked to see? That would be a poor interpretation. I always knew what my children were doing yet still looked to see, and behold they were doing exactly what I knew they were doing. Which is why I had my corrective plan already in mind.
I am certain beyond any doubt God knows better than I.

I don't know what your problem is. If I understand your comment, I am in agreement with you. I, absolutely, believe that God has all foreknowledge. My defense is that, a person can not make a true statement in saying, "God, by his foreknowledge, looked down through time and saw those that would choose him, and they are the ones that he choose as his elect".

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I am not understanding what your accusation of me is. What "action" are you claiming that you are able to take to give you eternal salvation (deliverance)?

Not accusing you of anything. There is no action that a man can take that will give him salvation. That is the work of Christ and Christ alone.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I don't know what your problem is. If I understand your comment, I am in agreement with you. I, absolutely, believe that God has all foreknowledge. My defense is that, a person can not make a true statement in saying, "God, by his foreknowledge, looked down through time and saw those that would choose him, and they are the ones that he choose as his elect".

I don't have a problem. Not with this anyway. I mean I have lots of problems but nothing to do with you or this thread.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Cleansing our souls by our obedience is not talking about getting eternal salvation. After we have been regenerated and yield to the desires of our fleshly nature and sin, when we repent and obey God's commands we have purified our souls from that sin. If being obedient to the gospel saves us eternally, it would be eternal salvation by works (depending on man's actions).

Peter is showing how we were born again through obeying the Gospel.


It’s very clear.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23



JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

I might have misunderstood your statement. If you are referring that we are delivered (saved here in time) from a sin by obeying the gospel, I agree with you, but if you are referring that we are saved (delivered) eternally by obeying the gospel, then I disagree with you.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10



JPT

 

[John146]

Peter is showing how we were born again through obeying the Gospel.


It’s very clear.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23



JPT

Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Obeying the gospel is equated to believing the gospel, believing the report concerning Jesus Christ and the cross.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10



JPT

After God has regenerated us and we are learning the gospel, we sometimes are drawn away by our fleshly lusts and disobey the gospel, are we then punished with everlasting destruction, or are we allowed to repent and come back into a fellowship with God?

 

[justpassinthrough]

After God has regenerated us and we are learning the gospel, we sometimes are drawn away by our fleshly lusts and disobey the gospel, are we then punished with everlasting destruction, or are we allowed to repent and come back into a fellowship with God?

If we repent, and return to God in which we are once again reconciled to Him, then all is forgiven, and we are restored to Him the n righteousness.


If we remain lost and die in that condition, then we will face eternal death.


The principle of becoming lost -


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


Key Verse -

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

When a person who wanders away from Him, and becomes lost, that person has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance.



James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

JLB