Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[preacher4truth]

I've been listening to some sermons on sermonaudio.com and I came across a preacher by the name of Charles Lawson. He seems to be very passionate and devoted to preaching the truth of Gods Word. But I was surprised when he rubbished John calvin and others who believe in election.
He sighted a verse in Johns gospel, where Christ mentioned that He has sheep not of this flock. He quoted a few other scriptures to make the point that it's up to each individual to come before God in repentance and faith.

After listening to some debates on sermonaudio on the topic of predestination and there were compelling arguments on both sides, so I've been digging deeper into the topic and I'm finding that there's a big division in the Church over this matter.

I've found more scriptures which support predestination and election than those like "choose ye this day who you will serve" and the most popular one, John 3:16

Election doesn't seem fair, from a human stand point so maybe we weren't meant to go too deep into God's sovereign reason for electing some and not others. My brother said that a God who creates some, whom He knows won't be saved is an evil God. He said he could never believe in a God like that. He's a Roman Catholic and this has made him even more weary of my conversion to evangelical Christianity. He was already suspicious but this topic has infuriated him and turned him off ever coming to visit my Church.

I hear you and am empathetic to your struggles and dilemma. Keep in mind that the lost are at enmity and hostile to the true God of Scripture; Romans 8:5-8, Ephesians 2:3; Colossians 1:21. When presented with Him you see people react in anger and frankly blaspheme God.

Romans 9:19-20 addresses the man who has issue with God's justice being exercised, and not showing mercy. This man blames God and asks on the basis of Him only showing mercy to whom He wills, and not others "How can He then find fault with them?" (since He won't grant it to all it is "unfair!") as if mercy were an obligation on God. Yes, people make these demands on God.

We must tread cautiously here, He does do exactly this, and Paul says basically to mortal man "Who do you think you are to answer back to God???" and Paul continues his proof that God shows mercy to whom He wills, and none other in the following verses.

I realize these are hard truths, but I embrace them knowing God is both gracious, granting this to those who do not deserve it, granting mercy to whom He wills, and is just in withholding these as well. I also bear in mind that God is God and knows exactly what He is doing, and that there is no injustice with Him.

When we let Scripture be what it is in revealing God in all His glory, and accept this, we then see how very awesome (in it's true definition, not as it is overused and mitigated today) God really is.

God bless you brother.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So it stands, it is all of God from start to finish.

No one will deny that salvation is all of God from start to finish.

But no one who believes the TRUE GOSPEL will deny that salvation is by obedience to the Gospel. And it is sinners who must obey the Gospel.

But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:16,17)

 

[ScottyPchristian]

I hear you and am empathetic to your struggles and dilemma. Keep in mind that the lost are at enmity and hostile to the true God of Scripture; Romans 8:5-8, Ephesians 2:3; Colossians 1:21. When presented with Him you see people react in anger and frankly blaspheme God.

Romans 9:19-20 addresses the man who has issue with God's justice being exercised, and not showing mercy. This man blames God and asks on the basis of Him only showing mercy to whom He wills, and not others "How can He then find fault with them?" (since He won't grant it to all it is "unfair!") as if mercy were an obligation on God. Yes, people make these demands on God.

We must tread cautiously here, He does do exactly this, and Paul says basically to mortal man "Who do you think you are to answer back to God???" and Paul continues his proof that God shows mercy to whom He wills, and none other in the following verses.

I realize these are hard truths, but I embrace them knowing God is both gracious, granting this to those who do not deserve it, granting mercy to whom He wills, and is just in withholding these as well. I also bear in mind that God is God and knows exactly what He is doing, and that there is no injustice with Him.

When we let Scripture be what it is in revealing God in all His glory, and accept this, we then see how very awesome (in it's true definition, not as it is overused and mitigated today) God really is.

God bless you brother.

I have been branded a "Calvinist" by my friends from various Christian denominations. I don't appreciate being labeled as a follower of a man, who was a fallen sinner like the rest of humanity. The only person I follow is the Lord Jesus Christ, but I will read and listen to men who faithfully proclaim and expound the holy scriptures.

There's only One Lord Jesus Christ, but we have so much hostility among the Christian denominations. I've had atheists mock Christianity, because of all the conflict and hatred among Christian denominations. They mention the bloodshed, between the Roman Catholics and Protestants, the Spanish inquisition, the child abuse and how divided the Church is to this day.

I can understand an atheist rejecting the Gospel, but I'm grieved when a professing Christian rejects it. Religious people seem to be the hardest to people to reach with thew gospel, they respond more hostility than an atheist. Now I've come to realize that God's sovereignty is the most offensive doctrine to religious people.

Very few people can withstand hearing the gospel, we go door knocking and find that only one in around a hundred will give you an audience. Most shut you down as soon as you mention Christ, and most of these are professing Christians.

 

[1ofthem]

Very few people can withstand hearing the gospel, we go door knocking and find that only one in around a hundred will give you an audience. Most shut you down as soon as you mention Christ, and most of these are professing Christians.

I find that hard to believe that most Christians don't want to hear the gospel or about Jesus...just saying.

As for the "going door knocking part", are you a Jehovah's Witness? Just wondering?

 

[garee]

I agree with most of what you are saying, but I am a little confused, as to your statement that God turns us. Can you explain your understanding of how God turns the unregenerate person, with scripture explanation, to help me understand your reasoning?

Reading the law that defines repent found in the parable in Jerimiah 31.Slowly carefully with the instruction for rightly dividing parables (2 Cor 4:18) study it Jerimiah 31 to show your approval to God who works in you. Commentaries can help or lead astray .

2 Corintians 4:16-18 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Therefore looking at the temporal things seen like a bullock comparing its nature to Ephraim one not accustomed of being yoked .

A picture of the yoke we have in Christ who does make our burden lighter as he works with us. . That work of Christ gives us life and lifts us o up turning us towards His power in us. Reassuring we have been turned not by human hands as a will . After him turning us by faith or labor of His love we a can in return comfort our selves.

To repent is to turn and comfort .The work of the Holy Spirit. He must do the first work of giving ears not accustomed to His voice.

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou (the working power) hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou (the working power) me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

1. to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
   

   1. (Niphal)
      1. to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion
      2. to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent
      3. to comfort oneself, be comforted
      4. to comfort oneself, ease oneself
   2. (Piel) to comfort, console
   3. (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled
   4. (Hithpael)
      1. to be sorry, have compassion
      2. to rue, repent of
      3. to comfort oneself, be comforted
      4. to ease oneself

Strong’s Definitions

 

[EleventhHour]

I realize these are hard truths,

Rather than these "hard truths" of God denying salvation to many, let us all go with the truth of scripture.

For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

 

[1ofthem]

Rather than these "hard truths" of God denying salvation to many, let us all go with the truth of scripture.

For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Amen... It is sad that some want to put limits on God, and His Word, and invitation to all mankind..... That whomsoever will may come.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There's a lot of food for thought in this short comment, it helps me make sense of why some of my highly educated friends reject the gospel and mock it as foolishness. It seems the more educated a person is, the less likely they are to believe the gospel.

Gods ways are very mysterious and He hasn't revealed much about Himself to us, so we just have to humbly accept what He has revealed and be happy with it. I've seen some try to explain why God does what He does, and they end up more confused then when they started.

God could have told us why He creates some vessels for honorable use and some for dishonorable use. It's like the clay asking the potter, why did you shape in in this fashion. The Serpent promised Eve that she could be something special if she just ate that fruit. We all get into trouble when we leave our post and try to be something special, Lucifer is a good example.

Yes, unless you deny yourself (your entelect) the Holy Spirit within you will not reveal the understanding of the truth, because if he did, you would take credit for yourself, instead of giving God the credit. I was denied the understanding of the truth for twelve years, because of thinking that I could figure the truth out with my entelect.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I appreciate the detailed summary, but there's a lot to consider in all those scriptures. It's probably more than I can process in the time I have available.
I was hoping you would have given me the answer in a bite size portion, but you've been exceedingly generous and filled my plate to more than I can deal with as I'm still being weaned of the milk I was trying to get an idea of how the "joint effort" salvation model looks like in practical terms.
I'm convinced that God makes the first move, then He expects us to do certain things and what happens if we don't do them as required to get a ticket to heaven.

I do not believe the scriptures requires us to do anything to get a ticket to heaven. The scriptures do tell us that if we follow the instructions God has given us on how to live our lives here in this world, we can enjoy a peaceful, and satisfying life as we live here.

Getting to heaven is by God's grace, which is a free gift that does not require any action from us.

 

[John146]

Very few people can withstand hearing the gospel, we go door knocking and find that only one in around a hundred will give you an audience. Most shut you down as soon as you mention Christ, and most of these are professing Christians.

Thanks for sharing. That’s where we are today. Forty years ago, people would invite you in their homes and hear you out. Today, you're lucky to get thirty seconds before they shut the door. Does that mean we give up? Not at all. The one person out of a hundred is worth it. Plant the seed. Preach the gospel in season and out.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Amen... It is sad that some want to put limits on God, and His Word, and invitation to all mankind..... That whomsoever will may come.

You are the one who puts limits on God, saying that God wants to eternally deliver all mankind to heaven, but God can not do what he wants, because mankind won't let him.

I believe that the scriptures teach us of a God that accomplishes all his will, and that he has power over all things to do as he wills.

Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing, and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

All of the scriptures must harmonize, if you have the truth of the doctrine of Jesus.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Thanks for sharing. That’s where we are today. Forty years ago, people would invite you in their homes and hear you out. Today, you're lucky to get thirty seconds before they shut the door. Does that mean we give up? Not at all. The one person out of a hundred is worth it. Plant the seed. Preach the gospel in season and out.

God does not need our help in saving souls eternally, nor does he ask us to help. He does instruct us to preach to his lost sheep (babes in Christ) to teach them about the righteousness of God, so that they will stop going about to establish their own righteousness by their good works.

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and to whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For Precept must be upon precept, Precept upon Precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Reading the law that defines repent found in the parable in Jerimiah 31.Slowly carefully with the instruction for rightly dividing parables (2 Cor 4:18) study it Jerimiah 31 to show your approval to God who works in you. Commentaries can help or lead astray .

2 Corintians 4:16-18 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Therefore looking at the temporal things seen like a bullock comparing its nature to Ephraim one not accustomed of being yoked .

A picture of the yoke we have in Christ who does make our burden lighter as he works with us. . That work of Christ gives us life and lifts us o up turning us towards His power in us. Reassuring we have been turned not by human hands as a will . After him turning us by faith or labor of His love we a can in return comfort our selves.

To repent is to turn and comfort .The work of the Holy Spirit. He must do the first work of giving ears not accustomed to His voice.

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou (the working power) hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou (the working power) me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

I can understand "the turning" as related to the repenting of a person that has been quickened, by God, to the new life, but I do not think that the scriptures apply this "turning" to the natural man before he has been quickened.

According to 1 Cor 2:14, the natural man will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he does not understand, and thinks it to be foolishness.

 

[1ofthem]

You are the one who puts limits on God, saying that God wants to eternally deliver all mankind to heaven, but God can not do what he wants, because mankind won't let him.

I believe that the scriptures teach us of a God that accomplishes all his will, and that he has power over all things to do as he wills.

Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing, and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

All of the scriptures must harmonize, if you have the truth of the doctrine of Jesus.

Yeah, all scripture must harmonize, so why do some want to take half of them out to try to limit the atonement? In trying to put limits and restrictions on the atonement, some are actually trying to put limits on God. God can save whomsoever he will. We know that it is not God's will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. The free gift has come upon all men and whosoever will accept it shall be saved.

There all too many places in the scripture that deal with the fact that Jesus died for all, whosoever will, the whole world, all men...etc. and we cannot just overlook that fact. So if you want to harmonize the scripture, I suggest you try to do it with honesty and integrity. We should not and cannot try to change the meaning of words to fit some man made doctrine.

 

[John146]

God does not need our help in saving souls eternally, nor does he ask us to help. He does instruct us to preach to his lost sheep (babes in Christ) to teach them about the righteousness of God, so that they will stop going about to establish their own righteousness by their good works.

Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and to whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For Precept must be upon precept, Precept upon Precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.

You really need to read through Acts and Paul’s epistles. Here’s a sample:

Acts 20
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[garee]

I can understand "the turning" as related to the repenting of a person that has been quickened, by God, to the new life, but I do not think that the scriptures apply this "turning" to the natural man before he has been quickened.

According to 1 Cor 2:14, the natural man will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he does not understand, and thinks it to be foolishness.

I would think as he is bringing salvation it is a process that begins with God breathing into new creatures spirit life quickening their soul. He either does all the work working with us in us or person does not have the Spirit of Christ .

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

 

[garee]

You really need to read through Acts and Paul’s epistles. Here’s a sample:

Acts 20
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

In all things the dead must receive life from the living . He turns darkness into light

Repentance toward God, is a living work .The work he works in us as a "labor of love" or called a "work of faith" .It is reckoned of Christ not of us. . . less any man boast in false pride

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen... It is sad that some want to put limits on God, and His Word, and invitation to all mankind..... That whomsoever will may come.

Calvinism is not biblical....end of story!

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, that is it exactly, He saves whom He wills to save, and grants both repentance and faith by grace. It is a work of God from start to finish, John 6:63 shows that in salvation the flesh profits nothing, it is all by the Spirit, and it isn't via mans will,. John 1:13.

So it stands, it is all of God from start to finish.

Hmmm. @fredoheaven thinks the true message of the Gospel preached as above deserved an "old" emoji reaction. Interesting. Preach it is 100% of God and he disagrees? Yep.

 

[fredoheaven]

Hmmm. @fredoheaven thinks the true message of the Gospel preached as above deserved an "old" emoji reaction. Interesting. Preach it is 100% of God and he disagrees? Yep.

Umm, I agree fully with what the scriptures of truth says but not with the the old Calvinism theory.