Can a Christian lose their salvation? Unsure.

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

notice they are NOT sanctified already, but are being sanctified.

1. Notice, he has perfected (past tense) those who are being sanctified (I am amazed that so many people ignore this word and this fact)

If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is wrong. You say that you are amazed how many people ignore this Word, yet all the while you yourself ignore the Word. You say and think that you are already perfected, when this is what the word teaches:

Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul does NOT teach we are already perfect. You do error in what you believe. Scriptures are True, what we believe is error if it is contrary to even one verse in Scriptures.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

perfected is an ongoing thing. NOT something that is automatic. It is written Therefore be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect, This is something you DO, it is NOT automatic.

We will never be perfect in our lives until we get to heaven, only then will anyone be actually perfect.

Yet the passage says he HAS PERFECTED FOREVER THOSE WHO.

At the moment a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, all their past sins are forgiven them cast into the sea of forgetfulness. They are indeed perfected by Him. This however does not mean that person will choose to remain in Him, to remain in that perfected condition that Jesus just had them in. In your statements above they are contradicting. You say on the one hand He has perfected us, then on the other say we can not be perfect until we go to Heaven. Are you perfected by Him or not? The Truth is anyone who accepts Jesus as their Savior and Lord, becomes perfect by and through Him, they are indeed sinless. This does not mean they will remain that way, because as soon as they knowingly and willingly commit sin, they have returned to their own vomit again. They were washed clean by His stripes and sacrifice, only to dirty their own selves up again. They were made perfect, but no longer remain in that condition because they freely choose to sin against Jesus.

You say "We will never be perfect in our lives until we get to heaven, only then will anyone be actually perfect."
The Word says "Perfect, Will not Stumble"

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

God does not expect us to be perfect the moment he saves us, We are babes, we must grow and learn to live like him, this does not happen overnight, But as per the word. The blood has been sprinkled on the mercy seat, God no longer sees our sin when it comes to the requirements of the law. it has been "covered" or "Atoned" which is what the OT symbol of the day of atonement represented.

When is a person Atoned? When is a person made perfect? When is a person "covered"? all this happens the moment a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. That is True.
ONCE, not every single day thereafter.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

This is too long, I need to cut it short, will finish responding later. But if you get the points above and see them as they are, you do not even need to go on any further.

Yes, it is apparent neither of us will be persuaded. The points you mentioned above i understand where you are coming from, i use to believe them as well, does not change the fact that i was wrong then. i am telling you the Truth what i teach is what God has told me. Is what you are teaching, did God tell you those things? or is that something you have learned from men and from your own self?
What i teach did not come from what men has told me. Does not come from my own beliefs, Does not come from my own studies, Does not come from my mind or from my own thinking. i merely teach what He told me to teach. He told me many things, what He told me, is what i teach to a generation who will refuse Him, because He is Truth.
i don't know why He chose me to teach His Truths. i really don't. But He did. If you do not hear or believe me, then it is not me that you disagree with, but God who told me these things. i have not told you anything false. You disagree because what i teach does not line up with what you believe. It lines up with Scriptures perfectly, just not what you believe is the Truth.
God has already told me that this generation would not receive the Truths that He told me to teach. i even asked Him, "IF they are not going to believe it, then why teach it at all?" Here is why. When you stand before God on Judgement Day, you will not be able to plead ignorance, that you did not know the Truth. i have not failed to tell you the Truth, you refuse to believe it when it was plainly given to you. Those who hear my words will not be able to claim ignorance. i have told you the Truth, STOP living in sins. the Bible calls those who can't cease from sin Cursed Children. Those who believe it is not possible, are likewise Cursed Children. If Anything that i have said is untrue, then show the Scriptures that reveal it to be untrue. You think what i teach is not True, because it is contrary to what YOU believe is the Truth, NOT contrary to what the Scriptures teach.
i teach "Go and Sin No More" who else taught that? Jesus Christ taught that also, and not only Jesus taught that, but all of His Apostles taught that as well. The entire Bible teaches us not to sin, How not to sin.
You see here is the difference
You teach that if you are Truly Saved, that you can (but shouldn't) live in sins, and still be SAVED
i teach that if you are Truly Saved, that you won't live in sins at all. Which is what the Bible teaches as well.
So. it is apparent you will hold on to the doctrine of OSAS till your dying breath, and their is no convincing you otherwise. But i have not failed to tell you the Truth, the very Truth that i testify comes from God Himself, because it did not come from me, nor from men. What you do with it is up to you, my hands are clean.

Love you and will keep you in my prayers, and i really mean that.

^i^

 

[Skinski7]

[video=youtube;_Dnnge1feB8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dnnge1feB8[/video]

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[forsha]

And yet we read...

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Says if they fall away, they cannot be renewed. You can't renew something that has never been. They were converted but fell away.

What Christ promises us is that no OUTSIDE force of any kind can separate us from God...

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yet we have the free will to choose to leave.

I believe that you are still not separating the salvation scriptures to the degree that they do not contradict each other. You must be born of the Spirit (regenerated) before you can be converted, 1 Cor 2:13. You can fall away from your fellowship with God (the church) but you can not fall away from your eternal salvation (deliverance).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

DiscipleDave said



If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is wrong. You say that you are amazed how many people ignore this Word, yet all the while you yourself ignore the Word. You say and think that you are already perfected, when this is what the word teaches:

Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were alreadyperfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul does NOT teach we are already perfect. You do error in what you believe. Scriptures are True, what we believe is error if it is contrary to even one verse in Scriptures.

^i^

So God lied. when he says he HAS PERFECTED?

of course paul was not perfect, No one is, the only one able to reach that position according to the law was Christ. No one else has or can. If salvation is dependent on this, no one will ever be saved.

You do understand there is a difference between positional sanctification, which is perfected. and conditional sanctification, which will be an ongoing process which will continue until we die do you not?

Glorification is when our condition in chrit will match our position in christ.

either way it does not matter,

He said he HAS PERFECTED already those who are BEING SANCTIFIED.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

DiscipleDave said



At the moment a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, all their past sins are forgiven them cast into the sea of forgetfulness. They are indeed perfected by Him. This however does not mean that person will choose to remain in Him, to remain in that perfected condition that Jesus just had them in. In your statements above they are contradicting. You say on the one hand He has perfected us, then on the other say we can not be perfect until we go to Heaven. Are you perfected by Him or not? The Truth is anyone who accepts Jesus as their Savior and Lord, becomes perfect by and through Him, they are indeed sinless. This does not mean they will remain that way, because as soon as they knowingly and willingly commit sin, they have returned to their own vomit again. They were washed clean by His stripes and sacrifice, only to dirty their own selves up again. They were made perfect, but no longer remain in that condition because they freely choose to sin against Jesus.

You say "[/B][/COLOR]We will never be perfect in our lives until we get to heaven, only then will anyone be actually perfect."
The Word says "Perfect, Will not Stumble"

^i^

lol. keep believing this, why do you excuse your sin? Your preaching an impossible gospel. which is not good news at all. it is placing people back under the law. which will never save anyone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When is a person Atoned? When is a person made perfect? When is a person "covered"? all this happens the moment a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. That is True.
ONCE, not every single day thereafter.

^i^[/B][/COLOR]

wrong it is forever.

that is what the OT symbol teaches us, and what the augthor os Hebrews tried to convey to those who still tried to get to heaven by their own works.

in the OT the high priest had to make sacrifice once a year, because people kept sinning, And forgiveness had to be paid for once a year.

Jesus because the perfect high priest, because he died once, to provide eternal atonement.

if our continued sin causes us to fall away, them Christ has to return, to make the high priestly atoning sacrifice again. because he only paid for past sin, not future (even though he died 2000 years ago already, so he already paid for future sin, even according to what you believe, )

 

[PWE]

so by your admission one who believes is baptised....so in essence your belief is that you must be baptised to be saved.......now you will say to me.... no that is not what I mean you are twisting the words....

Must be some misunderstanding. I believe what the Bible teaches about baptism (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Rom 6:3-5; Gal 3:26-27; John 3:5; 1 Cor 6:9-11; Eph 5:26; Titus 3:5, etc...) If a man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God... (1 Peter 4:11) ...baptism doth also now save us... (1 Peter 3:21)

 

[newbirth]

wrong it is forever.

that is what the OT symbol teaches us, and what the augthor os Hebrews tried to convey to those who still tried to get to heaven by their own works.

in the OT the high priest had to make sacrifice once a year, because people kept sinning, And forgiveness had to be paid for once a year.

Jesus because the perfect high priest, because he died once, to provide eternal atonement.

if our continued sin causes us to fall away, them Christ has to return, to make the high priestly atoning sacrifice again. because he only paid for past sin, not future (even though he died 2000 years ago already, so he already paid for future sin, even according to what you believe, )

see how you do not understand scripture....the difference with the OT is those sacrifice could not take away sin....or purge the conscience but the blood of Christ does....that is why the scripture say you should sin no more..... if you abide in him you stay free from sin....He also gave us the HS to guide us and if we sin we must confess them and be forgiven....if we sin wilfully after ...there is no more sacriice for sin....this idea of atonement for future sins is not in scripture...not in the OT or NT

 

[Socrates]

The post is irrelevant in the light of the Restoration of ALL THINGS - Acts 3:19-26

Rev 21:5 Behold I make all things new.

When will "Christians" wake up?

 

[newbirth]

The post is irrelevant in the light of the Restoration of ALL THINGS - Acts 3:19-26

Rev 21:5 Behold I make all things new.

When will "Christians" wake up?

Acts 3:19-26...is that not about Christ defeating sin death and hell and restoring the world to it's rightful owner


Rev 21:5
is he not speaking of a new heaven and a new earth

 

[eternally-gratefull]

see how you do not understand scripture....the difference with the OT is those sacrifice could not take away sin....or purge the conscience but the blood of Christ does....

No, Your the one who does not understand scripture. those OT doings were symbols of what Christ would do. what do you think they were given for? The book of Hebrews makes it clear what they represented. and I posted scripture to show that Jesus died once to remove all sin. and does not have to die anymore, because the price is paid. you do not even understand the payment for the smallest sin is the death of an innocent lamb (in our case, THE Lamb of God0. You think your trying to stop sin, or asking forgiveness is going to somehow allow God to forgive you when he made clear the only payment he will receive for whatever sin you have committed? why do you want to crucify Jesus over and over, and make his death insignificant?

that is why the scripture say you should sin no more..... if you abide in him you stay free from sin....He also gave us the HS to guide us and if we sin we must confess them and be forgiven....if we sin wilfully after ...there is no more sacriice for sin....this idea of atonement for future sins is not in scripture...not in the OT or NT

lol. There is one payment for sin, Blood. Your continued confessing to excuse your sin is not going to allow God to grant you forgiveness, If his payment on the cross was not sufficient for your forgiveness, They you are still dead in your sin, Jesus did not do his job.

No one is sinless. Stop excusing your sin!

 

[newbirth]

No, Your the one who does not understand scripture. those OT doings were symbols of what Christ would do. what do you think they were given for? The book of Hebrews makes it clear what they represented. and I posted scripture to show that Jesus died once to remove all sin. and does not have to die anymore, because the price is paid. you do not even understand the payment for the smallest sin is the death of an innocent lamb (in our case, THE Lamb of God0. You think your trying to stop sin, or asking forgiveness is going to somehow allow God to forgive you when he made clear the only payment he will receive for whatever sin you have committed? why do you want to crucify Jesus over and over, and make his death insignificant?

so in your understanding sins of the future are already forgiven? so man is without sin...all sins forgiven ....so God has already forgiven a man for the fornication he will commit tomorrow....?????

lol. There is one payment for sin, Blood. Your continued confessing to excuse your sin is not going to allow God to grant you forgiveness, If his payment on the cross was not sufficient for your forgiveness, They you are still dead in your sin, Jesus did not do his job.

..
so you are saying Jesus took away all our sins even those we may commit in the future have been forgiven automatically...and there is no need to ask God for forgiveness if we sin, that is all taken care of..so in essence you are saying we are actually always without sin...seeing they are already forgiven.then we are sinless....

No one is sinless. Stop excusing your sin!

now you are saying no one is sinless ...are your sins forgiven or not...if they are forgiven and all we commit are already forgiven ...how are you not sinless...where did the sins come from???which of your sins were not forgiven to make you not sinless?

 

[Radius]

now you are saying no one is sinless ...are your sins forgiven or not...if they are forgiven and all we commit are already forgiven ...how are you not sinless...where did the sins come from???which of your sins were not forgiven to make you not sinless?

Having your sins forgiven and covered doesn't mean you are sinless and perfect right NOW, on this earth. We sin all the time. We dont try to, but it happens. Including you good sir.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so in your understanding sins of the future are already forgiven? so man is without sin...all sins forgiven ....so God has already forgiven a man for the fornication he will commit tomorrow....?????

well lets see. Every sin I ever commited, or will commit were in the future when God died, and said he paid my debt.. so you tell me?

also. every sin I ever commited or will commit were known by God the moment I got on my knees and asked for his mercy and forgiveness. He gave me his gift of salvation knowing everything i would do from that point forward. so you tell me.

and what is the fornication crap? you think that is worse in Gods eyes than the moment you decide you do not want to go to church because your too tired?

Thats your problem, you do not understand what sin is! or Who God is!

so you are saying Jesus took away all our sins even those we may commit in the future have been forgiven automatically...and there is no need to ask God for forgiveness if we sin, that is all taken care of..so in essence you are saying we are actually always without sin...seeing they are already forgiven.then we are sinless....

what do you think the term justified means, it means declared righteous, innocent, Justification is a gift of God, not earned by your work of confessing every time.

Do you think God thinks you are more special because you confess some sin (yet deny all your other sins)

I do not go beg God to forgiveness, I come to the throne of grace and admit my error. I come to my abba father. who loves me, I stand up for my sin, and take my chastening that I deserve.

now you are saying no one is sinless ...are your sins forgiven or not...if they are forgiven and all we commit are already forgiven ...how are you not sinless...where did the sins come from???which of your sins were not forgiven to make you not sinless?

God said no one is sinless. And God said through John if we claim we are. we are decieved and there is no truth in us (or anyone who claims this)

do you think you fool God when you sin? that God just sits there and says, wow I did not see that happen. That is a grave error, he sinned, how dare him, I must take my free gift away now. Make it be known he is no longer in my family!

 

[newbirth]

Having your sins forgiven and covered doesn't mean you are sinless and perfect right NOW, on this earth. We sin all the time. We dont try to, but it happens. Including you good sir.

lets say you owe a $100.000 mortgage and the bank tells you one day your debt is forgiven.....how much do you still owe??? a man is trying to tell me all my sins are forgiven even those in the future that I have not done yet ...but I still have sins...how can that be??? someone is lying to me ....where do these sins you claim I have come from??

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

No, Your the one who does not understand scripture. those OT doings were symbols of what Christ would do. what do you think they were given for? The book of Hebrews makes it clear what they represented. and I posted scripture to show that Jesus died once to remove all sin. and does not have to die anymore, because the price is paid. you do not even understand the payment for the smallest sin is the death of an innocent lamb (in our case, THE Lamb of God0. You think your trying to stop sin, or asking forgiveness is going to somehow allow God to forgive you when he made clear the only payment he will receive for whatever sin you have committed? why do you want to crucify Jesus over and over, and make his death insignificant?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lets say you owe a $100.000 mortgage and the bank tells you one day your debt is forgiven.....how much do you still owe??? a man is trying to tell me all my sins are forgiven even those in the future that I have not done yet ...but I still have sins...how can that be??? someone is lying to me ....where do these sins you claim I have come from??

see, you do not understand.

When God looks at you he does not see you in what you have already done, as David said, he knows you from life to death, in fact he knew you before you were even born.

in your example, the 100,000 dollar mortgage was all you would ever ow your whole life, from birth to death. it is your final debt against God, and sum total of all you have ever done. or will do.

now either that debt was paid by God on the cross. and it is forgiven, or you try to pay it yourself (which you can't because you are broke and have no resources to pay one penny, let alone the whole debt)

when God saves you (he claimed he saved you before time began) he saved you based on this foreknowledge,

why do you insist on making God like a man, who is not all knowing?

 

[notuptome]

Man is constrained to operate within the bounds of time. God is not restricted to time or eternity.

God Who is all knowing, all present and all powerful forgives on His terms. Not limited to what we have done but also for all we will ever do.

Who is able to exhaust Gods grace? Who is able to exhaust the blood of Christ? How foolish a contention that God cannot do that which He has purposed to do. Where sin doth abound grace doth the more abound.

For the cause of Christ
Roger