Can One’s Salvation Be Given Up?

[Judges1318]

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Notice that the gospel Paul preached has already gone out into all the world. That’s the gospel of Jesus Christ. The end has not come. The gospel of the kingdom was only preached to the Jews through Jesus and His disciples.

If it were the same gospel, the end should have come.

Mission groups point out that there are still unreached people in the world who have yet to hear the gospel.
It's generally understood that the end will not come until they have been reached.

The Jesus Film Project is an awesome evangelistic tool in the world today.
If you read their news letter you'd know that the gifts have not ceased.
Without the miracles of the Spirit leaders in these hardened, unreached countries would kill you in a minute when you try to debunk their superstitions. Many times the Holy Spirit has gone ahead of the film crews and spoken to many of these people in dreams, preparing them for the visit of the film crews. Quite fascinating.

 

[John146]

Mission groups point out that there are still unreached people in the world who have yet to hear the gospel.
It's generally understood that the end will not come until they have been reached.

The Jesus Film Project is an awesome evangelistic tool in the world today.
If you read their news letter you'd know that the gifts have not ceased.
Without the miracles of the Spirit leaders in these hardened, unreached countries would kill you in a minute when you try to debunk their superstitions. Many times the Holy Spirit has gone ahead of the film crews and spoken to many of these people in dreams, preparing them for the visit of the film crews. Quite fascinating.

At one time in history, the gospel of Jesus Christ had gone out into all the world. People either rejected it or they did a poor job passing it on. Thus, we have many groups today that have not heard the gospel.

If the US continues as is, in 2,000 years it will be a people who has never heard the gospel. Isn’t that possible?

 

[John146]

The question you need to answer is, how can Paul say in vs. 12 that Christ will deny us, but then turn right around and say in vs. 13 that He cannot deny Himself (us, his body)? My interpretation of the passage easily explains that. I don't think you're does. But show me how your interpretation of the passage explains it. I say your doctrine puts vs. 12 and 13 in direct contradiction with each other. Mine doesn't.

I’ve been looking at this.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: Absent from the body, present with the Lord. Live, not necessarily reign with Him.
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: The context is reigning with Christ. If we suffer, we earn the reward of reigning with Him. If we deny Him because we don’t want to suffer for His name sake, then He will deny us the reward of reigning with Him.
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. This is the tricky one. If we believe not, we will forfeit our reward to reign, but Christ will deny himself His right to reign.

 

[Judges1318]

At one time in history, the gospel of Jesus Christ had gone out into all the world.

It's only in relatively modern history that man even knew that there was another hemisphere of people.

The Catholics had a massive evangelistic impact on the Indians of the southwest United States.
And just as an aside, Ken Burns in his documentary about the West told of how the Indians were amazed how the Catholics would pray for their headaches and they would be healed.

If the US continues as is, in 2,000 years it will be a people who has never heard the gospel. Isn’t that possible?

Yes, of course.
But at the rate we're going it won't take that long for that to happen.

 

[Guojing]

If Jesus the very Son of God himself couldn't heal 100% of the time why should Mark 16:18 mean we can?

Because Jesus said so? they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

the verse did not add a qualifier, "they shall lay hands on the sick, and if the sick have enough faith, they shall recover."

You are already quoted the verse where Jesus told the 12 they shall do greater things than him. This is one of those.

But as I have consistently stated, this verse is not for us now. We no longer have the sign gift of healing.

 

[Judges1318]

the verse did not add a qualifier, "they shall lay hands on the sick, and if the sick have enough faith, they shall recover."

The whole counsel of scripture shows us faith is a prerequisite for answered prayer.

This is a good example of not rightly dividing the word.
You are dividing out this part of scripture and improperly interpreting it outside of the full context of the scriptures.

 

[Judges1318]

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. This is the tricky one. If we believe not, we will forfeit our reward to reign, but Christ will deny himself His right to reign.

Very confusing.
You're saying "but Christ will deny himself His right to reign".
The passage says he can NOT deny himself.

 

[John146]

Very confusing.
You're saying "but Christ will deny himself His right to reign".
The passage says he can NOT deny himself.

Wow! Good catch. Sorry, I meant Christ will not deny Himself His right to reign. He’ll reign with or without us.

 

[Judges1318]

Wow! Good catch. Sorry, I meant Christ will not deny Himself His right to reign. He’ll reign with or without us.

I figured you probably just left the 'not' out.
I do it all the time, lol.

 

[Judges1318]

I’ve been looking at this.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: Absent from the body, present with the Lord. Live, not necessarily reign with Him.
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: The context is reigning with Christ. If we suffer, we earn the reward of reigning with Him. If we deny Him because we don’t want to suffer for His name sake, then He will deny us the reward of reigning with Him.
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. This is the tricky one. If we believe not, we will forfeit our reward to reign, but Christ will deny himself His right to reign.

That interpretation is so forced
Why can't we just go with the first and easy read of the passage?

If you disown/deny Him He will disown/deny you.
If you are faithless He will remain faithful, for he cannot disown Himself.

Obviously, the person who disowns/denies Him doesn't belong to Him. That's why he disowns that person.
But the person who belongs to him and isn't disowning him but is weak in faith He remains faithful to.

That's the first and obvious plain read of the passage. And there is no compelling reason that forces us to seek another less obvious esoteric meaning, unless one is trying to protect and preserve a once saved always saved bias. What's wrong with Him disowning those who disown Him? Unless of course one does not want it to mean that, and doesn't want others to think it means that.

 

[John146]

If you disown/deny Him He will disown/deny you.
If you are faithless He will remain faithful, for he cannot disown Himself.

The obvious context is reigning with Christ. This is not salvation. Paul’s talking to Timothy who is already saved.

 

[Guojing]

The whole counsel of scripture shows us faith is a prerequisite for answered prayer.

This is a good example of not rightly dividing the word.
You are dividing out this part of scripture and improperly interpreting it outside of the full context of the scriptures.

You are just refusing to read scripture without adding into it

 

[Judges1318]

The obvious context is reigning with Christ. This is not salvation. Paul’s talking to Timothy who is already saved.

Actually, the context is suffering.
He addresses four points, each one distinct and separate from the other and how they relate to suffering for the gospel.

Dying
Enduring
Disowning/ denying
Being faithless

If you die to self in your suffering, you will live.
If you endure in your suffering, you will reign with Him
If you disown/deny Him in your suffering, He will deny you.
If you are faithless in your suffering (failing, but not denying Him), He remains faithful, for you are part of His body.

Four distinct responses to suffering for the gospel, and the corresponding outcome of each. But you are taking the outcome of one and making it the context of the chapter and applying it to the other three.

 

[Judges1318]

You are just refusing to read scripture without adding into it

I always consider the full counsel of all the Bible when reading scripture. You can't read the Bible without considering everything the Bible has to say about a particular subject. If you want to call that 'adding to the scriptures', then that is exactly what I'm doing, and what I should be doing.

 

[watcher2013]

Paul never states that baptism is a part of salvation.

Jesus did...
EXCEPT a man be born of WATER and Spirit..he cannot enter the kingdom of God..
he also said...Ye MUST be born again...
please watch the video to understand baptism.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus did...
EXCEPT a man be born of WATER and Spirit..he cannot enter the kingdom of God..
he also said...Ye MUST be born again...
please watch the video to understand baptism.

Under the gospel of the kingdom, water baptism is required for all Jews.

 

[watcher2013]

Under the gospel of the kingdom, water baptism is required for all Jews.

not only to the JEWS but TO ALL who want to ENTER the kingdom of God

 

[Guojing]

not only to the JEWS but TO ALL who want to ENTER the kingdom of God

Now, we are under the Gospel of Grace, water baptism is no longer required.

There is no physical kingdom offered to us, where Jesus reign from an earthly throne.

 

[JohnR7]

Thus, we have many groups today that have not heard the gospel.

There is no one that has not heard the gospel. Each and every generation takes the message of Jesus to the very ends of the world.

 

[watcher2013]

Now, we are under the Gospel of Grace, water baptism is no longer required.

There is no physical kingdom offered to us, where Jesus reign from an earthly throne.

I suggest you watch the video...
Jesus said..EXCEPT...
He also said you MUST...
Unless you are completely born again you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Christ reign...
1Co_15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
HE MUST reign...(note: Paul wrote this to the Church particularly at corinth... Christ in heaven and the church is already propagating)
Where he will reign
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Then what happens after he reign.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.