Can you Sin and Not Die?
- Thread starter Tommy4Christ
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Zone it is a heart issue.
A heart can be changed in a moment of time or it can be a longer drawn out process.
I fear today that it is often a longer drawn out process simply because of all the false doctrine that abounds.
You can invent gnats to strain at all you want. It is all fluff to make an allowance for ongoing rebellion.
A human heart is either yielded to God or it isn't.
Obedience from the heart is essential to salvation. Whether that obedience is wrought in a moment or over a period of years it is still a necessity. There is no salvation in rebellion.
Salvation is SAVED FROM SIN.
The Bible teaches that those who YIELD TO SIN ARE IN BONDAGE.
Hence an important aspect of salvation is the bondage being broken.
Isn't that why Jesus came? To "redeem us from ALL iniquity" and to "purify us."
Your objection is simply due to wanting to believe in a salvation WHICH LACKS being redeemed from ALL iniquity and lacks heart purity.
You want a salvation where light and darkness mixes. Where one can walk according to the flesh and to the Spirit at the same time.
Practically every objection you make is rooted on this underlying premise. Due the Bible clearly teaching the opposite you are forced to invent gnats to strain at instead of directly addressing the SPECIFIC Bible verses I so clearly point out.
I would also really appreciate it if you could explicitly define what this "perfectionist heresy" actually is that refer to.
Thanks.
A heart can be changed in a moment of time or it can be a longer drawn out process.
I fear today that it is often a longer drawn out process simply because of all the false doctrine that abounds.
You can invent gnats to strain at all you want. It is all fluff to make an allowance for ongoing rebellion.
A human heart is either yielded to God or it isn't.
Obedience from the heart is essential to salvation. Whether that obedience is wrought in a moment or over a period of years it is still a necessity. There is no salvation in rebellion.
Salvation is SAVED FROM SIN.
The Bible teaches that those who YIELD TO SIN ARE IN BONDAGE.
Hence an important aspect of salvation is the bondage being broken.
Isn't that why Jesus came? To "redeem us from ALL iniquity" and to "purify us."
Your objection is simply due to wanting to believe in a salvation WHICH LACKS being redeemed from ALL iniquity and lacks heart purity.
You want a salvation where light and darkness mixes. Where one can walk according to the flesh and to the Spirit at the same time.
Practically every objection you make is rooted on this underlying premise. Due the Bible clearly teaching the opposite you are forced to invent gnats to strain at instead of directly addressing the SPECIFIC Bible verses I so clearly point out.
I would also really appreciate it if you could explicitly define what this "perfectionist heresy" actually is that refer to.
Thanks.
C
Not quite sure what you mean Cfultz.
Yes a child rebellion does have to turn from darkness to light if they want to be saved. God's hands our outstretched to all for he wants none to perish.
As far as the l plow that is this verse...
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Luk 9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Luk 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Luk 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
It simply means that we are to leave Egypt and not look back. It is a reference to being double-minded and still having a love for the things of the world while trying to serve God at the same time.
Lot's wife was a type and shadow of one who left Sodom and looked back. She perished.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
The world is a powerful draw but its pleasures are temporary. Our treasure is where our heart is, either on things above or on things below.
This is not to say it is wrong to enjoy a sunset of a family get together, the context is clearly in regards to idolatry where we put something in the place of God.
I hope that makes sense, I'm not sure exactly what you means in your comment.
Yes a child rebellion does have to turn from darkness to light if they want to be saved. God's hands our outstretched to all for he wants none to perish.
As far as the l plow that is this verse...
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Luk 9:57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Luk 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Luk 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
It simply means that we are to leave Egypt and not look back. It is a reference to being double-minded and still having a love for the things of the world while trying to serve God at the same time.
Lot's wife was a type and shadow of one who left Sodom and looked back. She perished.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
The world is a powerful draw but its pleasures are temporary. Our treasure is where our heart is, either on things above or on things below.
This is not to say it is wrong to enjoy a sunset of a family get together, the context is clearly in regards to idolatry where we put something in the place of God.
I hope that makes sense, I'm not sure exactly what you means in your comment.
Does the rebellion to God have to CEASE in repentance? Or can one be in a state of salvation and in rebellion to God at the same time?
To further express it out what you are saying is not heresry:
The above emboldend makes no sense to me, maybe I am just a bit slow
On the one hand you say:
Paul was carnal and sold under sin(ch7:14-28) but you don't think he was brought under conviction at that point, but you do believe he was under conviction in verses 14-28
I don't understand, can you explain?
On the one hand you say:
Paul was carnal and sold under sin(ch7:14-28) but you don't think he was brought under conviction at that point, but you do believe he was under conviction in verses 14-28
I don't understand, can you explain?
I was actually thinking about being pricked to the heart and it brought to mind what we were discussing at fellowship some time ago.
It is certainly much more difficult to be "pricked to the heart" or "brought to conviction" if one truly believes that their sin is a "result of a birth defect" as opposed to "a choice one made." Thus people often have a victim mindset as opposed to realising they are actually criminals in God's eyes.
Jesus taught this...
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Jesus was pointing out that the tax collector or publican KNEW they were criminals and thus would see the need to repent. It is the people who are religious and think they already have it made that resist true repentance. So it is today in the church system with multitudes of people who truly believe that they sin because they were born that way and that they will be sinning to the day they die, thus they trust their salvation to a judicial exchange which simply cloaks their defilement. Once that paradigm hooks the mind it is very difficult to come out from the delusion.
In this passage are some key aspects...
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Their works proved their repentance was real.
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Which is a parallel to what James taught...
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
In that passage James connects "believing" with an "active obedient faith." It is an active obedient faith that God credits to one as righteousness.
Believing which does not bear the fruit of righteousness is akin to the faith of devils.
It is certainly much more difficult to be "pricked to the heart" or "brought to conviction" if one truly believes that their sin is a "result of a birth defect" as opposed to "a choice one made." Thus people often have a victim mindset as opposed to realising they are actually criminals in God's eyes.
Jesus taught this...
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Jesus was pointing out that the tax collector or publican KNEW they were criminals and thus would see the need to repent. It is the people who are religious and think they already have it made that resist true repentance. So it is today in the church system with multitudes of people who truly believe that they sin because they were born that way and that they will be sinning to the day they die, thus they trust their salvation to a judicial exchange which simply cloaks their defilement. Once that paradigm hooks the mind it is very difficult to come out from the delusion.
In this passage are some key aspects...
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Their works proved their repentance was real.
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Which is a parallel to what James taught...
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
In that passage James connects "believing" with an "active obedient faith." It is an active obedient faith that God credits to one as righteousness.
Believing which does not bear the fruit of righteousness is akin to the faith of devils.
Well carefully read the passage...
First it is written to those who "know the law."
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Paul then defends the law against the thought that the law is evil because it wrought death.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The law simply brought the knowledge of sin and when men chose to do wrong when they knew better it wrought death to them hence (Gen 2:17, Rom 6:23, Rom 7:11, Jam 4:17, 1Joh 3:4).
The law was ordained for good because it points the way we should go but when we willfully choose to violate righteousness it is sin that brings death.
The actual law clearly clearly taught right from wrong and thus due to it being so specific (thou shalt not murder etc.) it made sin becoming exceedingly sinful.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Yet even without the law of Moses death still reigned because all men have the light of conscience (Joh 1:9. Tit 2:11-12) and are thus without excuse. Therefore death still reigned before the law.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Whether one was a Jew and violated the letter or whether one was a Gentile and violated their conscience all are guilty before God. Hence...
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The above is a parallel between the Jews and the Gentiles concluding ALL UNDER SIN. Whether one sinned with the law or one sinned without the law. Doing wrong when you know to do right is sin and the wages of it is death.
Just as Israel sold themselves into sin so does everyone else.
Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
Thus the wretch of Romans 7 has been sold into carnality.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
What the wretch does he KNOWS NOT (he is in darkness).
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Allow - G1097 - ginōskō
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to “know” (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.
In other words many people "want to do what is right" but they "do not know how to do what is right" because THEY ARE IN DARKNESS and thus KNOW NOT. If they really knew what they were doing they would not do it. Living in sin is pure insanity because the result is total destruction, no-one who truly understands what sin is has anything to do with it.
Therefore the wretch does what he wouldn't do otherwise if he knew better but he admits that the righteousness that the law speaks of is good.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Thus when he sins it is not him (in a figurative sense) it is the sin that dwells in him.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
The "sin dwelling in me" IS NOT a reference to Original Sin. That doctrine was brought into the Church by Augustine in the 4th century. The "sin dwelling in me" is a clear reference to the "body of sin."
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
It is the "body of sin" that holds people in bondage. It must be destroyed by being crucified with Christ. Human beings become addicted to sin because the human brain is constructed in such a way that neuron pathways are formed in regards to the dopamine receptors and the firing off of neurotransmitters.
When someone engages in a pleasure activity whether it be sinful or not the reason they feel pleasure is because neurotransmitters are being fired off into the pleasure centers of the brain. When one engages in repeated acts of sin a "sensory reward system" is patterned in the brain and thus a strong desire to repeatedly perform the action becomes hardwired. Scientific studies into habits and addiction confirm this.
This is why sinning leads to bondage. No-one is born into bondage to sin. The bondage is acquired through long practiced habit and thus the nature by which one becomes a child of wrath is something that is a result of an ACT OF THE WILL in YIELDING TO TEMPTATION. This is why the Bible clearly states that "we sell ourselves into sin" rather than "we are born into sin." When David says he was "born into iniquity" he does not say "iniquity was born in him," rather he is referring to being born into a sinful world of iniquity.
The Bible clearly teaches that sin is a CHOICE as opposed to a DISEASE. This is one of the greatest misunderstandings in modern theology and it is the root of much error.
Paul goes on...
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
This wretch is ADDICTED TO SIN. Like any addict who wants to be free of their addiction they don't know how to quit. Look at many smokers and drunks who quit for a time but fall right back into it. This is why sin cannot be defeated in the flesh. The solution is in the spiritual realm not the carnal realm.
Paul just reiterates his points here...
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
There is something "in him" that makes him sin. It is the "body of sin" which is addicted. It's not easy for someone to break old habits is it? Do messy people become tidy people easily? No, it is extremely difficult.
This wretch delights in his knowledge of righteousness. He really does want to do the right thing. He is very conflicted.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
He is also very convicted. He is crying out for deliverance.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
This wretch IS NOT A CHRISTIAN. He is a sinner in bondage to the flesh who is under conviction who is SEEKING deliverance.
His "mind" serves the law of God but the "flesh" the law of sin. The flesh WILL ALWAYS serve the law of sin because the flesh is the raw passions and desires and it yearns gratification.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul continues...
Due to what Paul has just written he says this...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
One MUST be IN CHRIST.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
It is the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST that sets one free.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The law cannot set one free because it is merely outward rules and regulations and simply yielding to rules does not effect the root cause of sin which is iniquity in the heart by which one yields to temptation and gratifies the flesh. Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh (a flesh body with the same passions and desires we have) and RULED OVER IT and thus condemned SIN IN THE FLESH. In other words Jesus gave us an example of not having sin rule over us. ie. ye shall rule over it (Gen 4:7).
True righteousness is fulfilled IN US when we WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
You see the solution to sin is to die with Christ in broken repentance so that one can submit to God in walking after the Spirit. It is by the Spirit that we are QUICKENED to life and that OUR MORTAL BODIES ARE QUICKENED.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
In other words when we renew our minds our brains become hardwired to God instead of being hardwired to sin. First the heart has to be purged of iniquity and made pure and then we walk after the Spirit growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
One of the greatest fallacies today is the Romans 7 wretch being constantly taught as the PRESENT walk of a Christian. Alongside the fallacies of 1Joh 1:8-10 being taught as Christian's being in a perpetual state of bondage to sin.
I can lead a horse to water but I cannot make it drink. The religious systems of the world have always had it wrong. Israel was apostate, the Pharisees were apostate, and what portrays itself as modern Christianity is completely apostate.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
A redeemed and born again Christian is not carnal and sold under sin!
First it is written to those who "know the law."
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Paul then defends the law against the thought that the law is evil because it wrought death.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The law simply brought the knowledge of sin and when men chose to do wrong when they knew better it wrought death to them hence (Gen 2:17, Rom 6:23, Rom 7:11, Jam 4:17, 1Joh 3:4).
The law was ordained for good because it points the way we should go but when we willfully choose to violate righteousness it is sin that brings death.
The actual law clearly clearly taught right from wrong and thus due to it being so specific (thou shalt not murder etc.) it made sin becoming exceedingly sinful.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Yet even without the law of Moses death still reigned because all men have the light of conscience (Joh 1:9. Tit 2:11-12) and are thus without excuse. Therefore death still reigned before the law.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Whether one was a Jew and violated the letter or whether one was a Gentile and violated their conscience all are guilty before God. Hence...
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The above is a parallel between the Jews and the Gentiles concluding ALL UNDER SIN. Whether one sinned with the law or one sinned without the law. Doing wrong when you know to do right is sin and the wages of it is death.
Just as Israel sold themselves into sin so does everyone else.
Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
Thus the wretch of Romans 7 has been sold into carnality.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
What the wretch does he KNOWS NOT (he is in darkness).
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Allow - G1097 - ginōskō
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to “know” (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.
In other words many people "want to do what is right" but they "do not know how to do what is right" because THEY ARE IN DARKNESS and thus KNOW NOT. If they really knew what they were doing they would not do it. Living in sin is pure insanity because the result is total destruction, no-one who truly understands what sin is has anything to do with it.
Therefore the wretch does what he wouldn't do otherwise if he knew better but he admits that the righteousness that the law speaks of is good.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Thus when he sins it is not him (in a figurative sense) it is the sin that dwells in him.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
The "sin dwelling in me" IS NOT a reference to Original Sin. That doctrine was brought into the Church by Augustine in the 4th century. The "sin dwelling in me" is a clear reference to the "body of sin."
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
It is the "body of sin" that holds people in bondage. It must be destroyed by being crucified with Christ. Human beings become addicted to sin because the human brain is constructed in such a way that neuron pathways are formed in regards to the dopamine receptors and the firing off of neurotransmitters.
When someone engages in a pleasure activity whether it be sinful or not the reason they feel pleasure is because neurotransmitters are being fired off into the pleasure centers of the brain. When one engages in repeated acts of sin a "sensory reward system" is patterned in the brain and thus a strong desire to repeatedly perform the action becomes hardwired. Scientific studies into habits and addiction confirm this.
This is why sinning leads to bondage. No-one is born into bondage to sin. The bondage is acquired through long practiced habit and thus the nature by which one becomes a child of wrath is something that is a result of an ACT OF THE WILL in YIELDING TO TEMPTATION. This is why the Bible clearly states that "we sell ourselves into sin" rather than "we are born into sin." When David says he was "born into iniquity" he does not say "iniquity was born in him," rather he is referring to being born into a sinful world of iniquity.
The Bible clearly teaches that sin is a CHOICE as opposed to a DISEASE. This is one of the greatest misunderstandings in modern theology and it is the root of much error.
Paul goes on...
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
This wretch is ADDICTED TO SIN. Like any addict who wants to be free of their addiction they don't know how to quit. Look at many smokers and drunks who quit for a time but fall right back into it. This is why sin cannot be defeated in the flesh. The solution is in the spiritual realm not the carnal realm.
Paul just reiterates his points here...
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
There is something "in him" that makes him sin. It is the "body of sin" which is addicted. It's not easy for someone to break old habits is it? Do messy people become tidy people easily? No, it is extremely difficult.
This wretch delights in his knowledge of righteousness. He really does want to do the right thing. He is very conflicted.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
He is also very convicted. He is crying out for deliverance.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
This wretch IS NOT A CHRISTIAN. He is a sinner in bondage to the flesh who is under conviction who is SEEKING deliverance.
His "mind" serves the law of God but the "flesh" the law of sin. The flesh WILL ALWAYS serve the law of sin because the flesh is the raw passions and desires and it yearns gratification.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul continues...
Due to what Paul has just written he says this...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
One MUST be IN CHRIST.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
It is the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST that sets one free.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The law cannot set one free because it is merely outward rules and regulations and simply yielding to rules does not effect the root cause of sin which is iniquity in the heart by which one yields to temptation and gratifies the flesh. Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh (a flesh body with the same passions and desires we have) and RULED OVER IT and thus condemned SIN IN THE FLESH. In other words Jesus gave us an example of not having sin rule over us. ie. ye shall rule over it (Gen 4:7).
True righteousness is fulfilled IN US when we WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
You see the solution to sin is to die with Christ in broken repentance so that one can submit to God in walking after the Spirit. It is by the Spirit that we are QUICKENED to life and that OUR MORTAL BODIES ARE QUICKENED.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
In other words when we renew our minds our brains become hardwired to God instead of being hardwired to sin. First the heart has to be purged of iniquity and made pure and then we walk after the Spirit growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
One of the greatest fallacies today is the Romans 7 wretch being constantly taught as the PRESENT walk of a Christian. Alongside the fallacies of 1Joh 1:8-10 being taught as Christian's being in a perpetual state of bondage to sin.
I can lead a horse to water but I cannot make it drink. The religious systems of the world have always had it wrong. Israel was apostate, the Pharisees were apostate, and what portrays itself as modern Christianity is completely apostate.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
A redeemed and born again Christian is not carnal and sold under sin!
Last edited:
Well carefully read the passage...
First it is written to those who "know the law."
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Paul then defends the law against the thought that the law is evil because it wrought death.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The law simply brought the knowledge of sin and when men chose to do wrong when they knew better it wrought death to them hence (Gen 2:17, Rom 6:23, Rom 7:11, Jam 4:17, 1Joh 3:4).
The law was ordained for good because it points the way we should go but when we willfully choose to violate righteousness it is sin that brings death.
The actual law clearly clearly taught right from wrong and thus due to it being so specific (thou shalt not murder etc.) it made sin becoming exceedingly sinful.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Yet even without the law of Moses death still reigned because all men have the light of conscience (Joh 1:9. Tit 2:11-12) and are thus without excuse. Therefore death still reigned before the law.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Whether one was a Jew and violated the letter or whether one was a Gentile and violated their conscience all are guilty before God. Hence...
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The above is a parallel between the Jews and the Gentiles concluding ALL UNDER SIN. Whether one sinned with the law or one sinned without the law. Doing wrong when you know to do right is sin and the wages of it is death.
Just as Israel sold themselves into sin so does everyone else.
Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
Thus the wretch of Romans 7 has been sold into carnality.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
What the wretch does he KNOWS NOT (he is in darkness).
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Allow - G1097 - ginōskō
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to “know” (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.
In other words many people "want to do what is right" but they "do not know how to do what is right" because THEY ARE IN DARKNESS and thus KNOW NOT. If they really knew what they were doing they would not do it. Living in sin is pure insanity because the result is total destruction, no-one who truly understands what sin is has anything to do with it.
Therefore the wretch does what he wouldn't do otherwise if he knew better but he admits that the righteousness that the law speaks of is good.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Thus when he sins it is not him (in a figurative sense) it is the sin that dwells in him.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
The "sin dwelling in me" IS NOT a reference to Original Sin. That doctrine was brought into the Church by Augustine in the 4th century. The "sin dwelling in me" is a clear reference to the "body of sin."
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
It is the "body of sin" that holds people in bondage. It must be destroyed by being crucified with Christ. Human beings become addicted to sin because the human brain is constructed in such a way that neuron pathways are formed in regards to the dopamine receptors and the firing off of neurotransmitters.
When someone engages in a pleasure activity whether it be sinful or not the reason they feel pleasure is because neurotransmitters are being fired off into the pleasure centers of the brain. When one engages in repeated acts of sin a "sensory reward system" is patterned in the brain and thus a strong desire to repeatedly perform the action becomes hardwired. Scientific studies into habits and addiction confirm this.
This is why sinning leads to bondage. No-one is born into bondage to sin. The bondage is acquired through long practiced habit and thus the nature by which one becomes a child of wrath is something that is a result of an ACT OF THE WILL in YIELDING TO TEMPTATION. This is why the Bible clearly states that "we sell ourselves into sin" rather than "we are born into sin." When David says he was "born into iniquity" he does not say "iniquity was born in him," rather he is referring to being born into a sinful world of iniquity.
The Bible clearly teaches that sin is a CHOICE as opposed to a DISEASE. This is one of the greatest misunderstandings in modern theology and it is the root of much error.
Paul goes on...
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
This wretch is ADDICTED TO SIN. Like any addict who wants to be free of their addiction they don't know how to quit. Look at many smokers and drunks who quit for a time but fall right back into it. This is why sin cannot be defeated in the flesh. The solution is in the spiritual realm not the carnal realm.
Paul just reiterates his points here...
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
There is something "in him" that makes him sin. It is the "body of sin" which is addicted. It's not easy for someone to break old habits is it? Do messy people become tidy people easily? No, it is extremely difficult.
This wretch delights in his knowledge of righteousness. He really does want to do the right thing. He is very conflicted.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
He is also very convicted. He is crying out for deliverance.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
This wretch IS NOT A CHRISTIAN. He is a sinner in bondage to the flesh who is under conviction who is SEEKING deliverance.
His "mind" serves the law of God but the "flesh" the law of sin. The flesh WILL ALWAYS serve the law of sin because the flesh is the raw passions and desires and it yearns gratification.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul continues...
Due to what Paul has just written he says this...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
One MUST be IN CHRIST.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
It is the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST that sets one free.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The law cannot set one free because it is merely outward rules and regulations and simply yielding to rules does not effect the root cause of sin which is iniquity in the heart by which one yields to temptation and gratifies the flesh. Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh (a flesh body with the same passions and desires we have) and RULED OVER IT and thus condemned SIN IN THE FLESH. In other words Jesus gave us an example of not having sin rule over us. ie. ye shall rule over it (Gen 4:7).
True righteousness is fulfilled IN US when we WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
You see the solution to sin is to die with Christ in broken repentance so that one can submit to God in walking after the Spirit. It is by the Spirit that we are QUICKENED to life and that OUR MORTAL BODIES ARE QUICKENED.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
In other words when we renew our minds our brains become hardwired to God instead of being hardwired to sin. First the heart has to be purged of iniquity and made pure and then we walk after the Spirit growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
One of the greatest fallacies today is the Romans 7 wretch being constantly taught as the PRESENT walk of a Christian. Alongside the fallacies of 1Joh 1:8-10 being taught as Christian's being in a perpetual state of bondage to sin.
I can lead a horse to water but I cannot make it drink. The religious systems of the world have always had it wrong. Israel was apostate, the Pharisees were apostate, and what portrays itself as modern Christianity is completely apostate.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
A redeemed and born again Christian is not carnal and sold under sin!
First it is written to those who "know the law."
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Paul then defends the law against the thought that the law is evil because it wrought death.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The law simply brought the knowledge of sin and when men chose to do wrong when they knew better it wrought death to them hence (Gen 2:17, Rom 6:23, Rom 7:11, Jam 4:17, 1Joh 3:4).
The law was ordained for good because it points the way we should go but when we willfully choose to violate righteousness it is sin that brings death.
The actual law clearly clearly taught right from wrong and thus due to it being so specific (thou shalt not murder etc.) it made sin becoming exceedingly sinful.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Yet even without the law of Moses death still reigned because all men have the light of conscience (Joh 1:9. Tit 2:11-12) and are thus without excuse. Therefore death still reigned before the law.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Whether one was a Jew and violated the letter or whether one was a Gentile and violated their conscience all are guilty before God. Hence...
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The above is a parallel between the Jews and the Gentiles concluding ALL UNDER SIN. Whether one sinned with the law or one sinned without the law. Doing wrong when you know to do right is sin and the wages of it is death.
Just as Israel sold themselves into sin so does everyone else.
Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
Thus the wretch of Romans 7 has been sold into carnality.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
What the wretch does he KNOWS NOT (he is in darkness).
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Allow - G1097 - ginōskō
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to “know” (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.
In other words many people "want to do what is right" but they "do not know how to do what is right" because THEY ARE IN DARKNESS and thus KNOW NOT. If they really knew what they were doing they would not do it. Living in sin is pure insanity because the result is total destruction, no-one who truly understands what sin is has anything to do with it.
Therefore the wretch does what he wouldn't do otherwise if he knew better but he admits that the righteousness that the law speaks of is good.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Thus when he sins it is not him (in a figurative sense) it is the sin that dwells in him.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
The "sin dwelling in me" IS NOT a reference to Original Sin. That doctrine was brought into the Church by Augustine in the 4th century. The "sin dwelling in me" is a clear reference to the "body of sin."
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
It is the "body of sin" that holds people in bondage. It must be destroyed by being crucified with Christ. Human beings become addicted to sin because the human brain is constructed in such a way that neuron pathways are formed in regards to the dopamine receptors and the firing off of neurotransmitters.
When someone engages in a pleasure activity whether it be sinful or not the reason they feel pleasure is because neurotransmitters are being fired off into the pleasure centers of the brain. When one engages in repeated acts of sin a "sensory reward system" is patterned in the brain and thus a strong desire to repeatedly perform the action becomes hardwired. Scientific studies into habits and addiction confirm this.
This is why sinning leads to bondage. No-one is born into bondage to sin. The bondage is acquired through long practiced habit and thus the nature by which one becomes a child of wrath is something that is a result of an ACT OF THE WILL in YIELDING TO TEMPTATION. This is why the Bible clearly states that "we sell ourselves into sin" rather than "we are born into sin." When David says he was "born into iniquity" he does not say "iniquity was born in him," rather he is referring to being born into a sinful world of iniquity.
The Bible clearly teaches that sin is a CHOICE as opposed to a DISEASE. This is one of the greatest misunderstandings in modern theology and it is the root of much error.
Paul goes on...
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
This wretch is ADDICTED TO SIN. Like any addict who wants to be free of their addiction they don't know how to quit. Look at many smokers and drunks who quit for a time but fall right back into it. This is why sin cannot be defeated in the flesh. The solution is in the spiritual realm not the carnal realm.
Paul just reiterates his points here...
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
There is something "in him" that makes him sin. It is the "body of sin" which is addicted. It's not easy for someone to break old habits is it? Do messy people become tidy people easily? No, it is extremely difficult.
This wretch delights in his knowledge of righteousness. He really does want to do the right thing. He is very conflicted.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
He is also very convicted. He is crying out for deliverance.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
This wretch IS NOT A CHRISTIAN. He is a sinner in bondage to the flesh who is under conviction who is SEEKING deliverance.
His "mind" serves the law of God but the "flesh" the law of sin. The flesh WILL ALWAYS serve the law of sin because the flesh is the raw passions and desires and it yearns gratification.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul continues...
Due to what Paul has just written he says this...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
One MUST be IN CHRIST.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
It is the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST that sets one free.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The law cannot set one free because it is merely outward rules and regulations and simply yielding to rules does not effect the root cause of sin which is iniquity in the heart by which one yields to temptation and gratifies the flesh. Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh (a flesh body with the same passions and desires we have) and RULED OVER IT and thus condemned SIN IN THE FLESH. In other words Jesus gave us an example of not having sin rule over us. ie. ye shall rule over it (Gen 4:7).
True righteousness is fulfilled IN US when we WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
You see the solution to sin is to die with Christ in broken repentance so that one can submit to God in walking after the Spirit. It is by the Spirit that we are QUICKENED to life and that OUR MORTAL BODIES ARE QUICKENED.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
In other words when we renew our minds our brains become hardwired to God instead of being hardwired to sin. First the heart has to be purged of iniquity and made pure and then we walk after the Spirit growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
One of the greatest fallacies today is the Romans 7 wretch being constantly taught as the PRESENT walk of a Christian. Alongside the fallacies of 1Joh 1:8-10 being taught as Christian's being in a perpetual state of bondage to sin.
I can lead a horse to water but I cannot make it drink. The religious systems of the world have always had it wrong. Israel was apostate, the Pharisees were apostate, and what portrays itself as modern Christianity is completely apostate.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
A redeemed and born again Christian is not carnal and sold under sin!
The question I asked only requires a short response from you
I will ask it one more time, if you do not answer it I will take it you do not know what the answer is
It does not demand reams of scripture verses in response, just your opinion of the following?
What caused 'the wretch' of Rom 7(as you put it) to be in the state he was in?
A
wow... I'm surprised I actually agree with most of what I've read you write today.
I would say the wretch is a man who is under the law of Moses and the first covenant because he has not learn of the second one mediated by Jesus. He pleads with God for a mediator and savior from the sinful fleshful desires he has that he knows go against good and righteous laws. He agrees with God that he is not righteous and in need of God's help and then thanks God for Jesus Christ and what He has done. Romans 7 describes the beginning of wisdom: fear of God and godly repentance. I like to go on reading Romans 8 about how the Holy Spirit helps people overcome.
I would say the wretch is a man who is under the law of Moses and the first covenant because he has not learn of the second one mediated by Jesus. He pleads with God for a mediator and savior from the sinful fleshful desires he has that he knows go against good and righteous laws. He agrees with God that he is not righteous and in need of God's help and then thanks God for Jesus Christ and what He has done. Romans 7 describes the beginning of wisdom: fear of God and godly repentance. I like to go on reading Romans 8 about how the Holy Spirit helps people overcome.
The context of the comment you are asking about is in regards to "who is the Roman's wretch."
The Roman's wretch is not necessarily Paul. It is a personification of a man under the law who is carnal and sold under sin who needs deliverance. Hence when I said that the wretch is under conviction yet I speculate as to the conviction of Saul I mean that in the sense that the wretch is not necessarily Saul. Paul is writing in a grammatical style known as the "Historical Present" to emphasise the importance of what he is teaching, he saw it important to defend the law because remember what he was teaching was completely against what many believed Judaism taught. Paul did not want to appear like he was teaching that the law was a bad thing.
Paul wrote the wretch passage as a defence of the law (due to what he wrote in Rom 6) and as a further explanation as to how the law cannot redeem a man. Hence Romans 6,7 and 8 all compliment each other.
Rom 6 is the methodology.
Rom 7 is the problem.
Rom 8 is the victory.
Paul presents certain things in Romans 6 which he elaborates on in Romans 7 and then in Romans 8 he paints a clear picture of what the victorious walk should look like so people will not be confused.
Paul is very detailed in his exposition of the Gospel. It is due to this detail than many twist what he wrote.
The Roman's wretch is not necessarily Paul. It is a personification of a man under the law who is carnal and sold under sin who needs deliverance. Hence when I said that the wretch is under conviction yet I speculate as to the conviction of Saul I mean that in the sense that the wretch is not necessarily Saul. Paul is writing in a grammatical style known as the "Historical Present" to emphasise the importance of what he is teaching, he saw it important to defend the law because remember what he was teaching was completely against what many believed Judaism taught. Paul did not want to appear like he was teaching that the law was a bad thing.
Paul wrote the wretch passage as a defence of the law (due to what he wrote in Rom 6) and as a further explanation as to how the law cannot redeem a man. Hence Romans 6,7 and 8 all compliment each other.
Rom 6 is the methodology.
Rom 7 is the problem.
Rom 8 is the victory.
Paul presents certain things in Romans 6 which he elaborates on in Romans 7 and then in Romans 8 he paints a clear picture of what the victorious walk should look like so people will not be confused.
Paul is very detailed in his exposition of the Gospel. It is due to this detail than many twist what he wrote.
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I use plenty of scripture references to demonstrate where my answer comes from. If I state something I ought to be able to support it with Scripture.
I like to patiently lay a foundation not only for the benefit of others but for my own benefit too.
Christianchat.com is good practice for preaching outside especially because ti allows me to address and work through any objections. Many of the people on Christianchat.com are more theologically minded than the average person I meet in the street who doesn't really pay much attention to the Bible. If someone can prove me wrong about something I love it because truth is truth and I want to align myself with it no matter what it is.
Here I get to respond to people who have been to seminary or read theological books. I haven't really read any theological books for doctrine except in researching the foundations of the common doctrines I see as false. Hence I read the Institutes, Augustine, Luther etc. to learn their reasoning and how they formed their conclusions. If what they wrote did not contradict the Bible I would not have any problem with it.
So again, when someone asks me a question I perfer not to give a "soundbyte" without presenting the reasoning behind it.
I like to patiently lay a foundation not only for the benefit of others but for my own benefit too.
Christianchat.com is good practice for preaching outside especially because ti allows me to address and work through any objections. Many of the people on Christianchat.com are more theologically minded than the average person I meet in the street who doesn't really pay much attention to the Bible. If someone can prove me wrong about something I love it because truth is truth and I want to align myself with it no matter what it is.
Here I get to respond to people who have been to seminary or read theological books. I haven't really read any theological books for doctrine except in researching the foundations of the common doctrines I see as false. Hence I read the Institutes, Augustine, Luther etc. to learn their reasoning and how they formed their conclusions. If what they wrote did not contradict the Bible I would not have any problem with it.
So again, when someone asks me a question I perfer not to give a "soundbyte" without presenting the reasoning behind it.
I'm sorry Skinski, but most of the time you just recite huge swathes of scripture, it is good sometimes to give thorough explanations of what you believe scripture is saying, and your opinions , as I will give you as to how I see Rom 7
If you believe the wretch of Rom 7 was in that state because he chose to sin, what does he need saving from?
Surely if he wilfully/deliberately chose to spend his whole life sinning He was rejecting God-no?
If that is the case he needs to be rescued from not desiring to follow God, would you not agree?
If you believe the wretch of Rom 7 was in that state because he chose to sin, what does he need saving from?
Surely if he wilfully/deliberately chose to spend his whole life sinning He was rejecting God-no?
If that is the case he needs to be rescued from not desiring to follow God, would you not agree?
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really?
who changes the heart skinski?
you?
i hope you are going to tell me WHY it is a long drawn out process.
why is a long drawn out process? who ever, ever told it wasn't? don't you know this is for life?
i really hope you have an answer for all the people you yourself have been leading to believe in sinless perfection (which you deny, but you know you have...and you most surely have seen the fallout. if you haven't there's really something wrong) - ceasing all known sin before God will save you.
you didn't. and you haven't.
you've called it by an infinite number of names. we know the schtick.
and you have made no effort whatsoever to talk directly to the Romans 6&7 people and self-taught who are actually listening to you about what it means and looks like to be saved. what it has been like for you.
you are responsible for what you teach and what you have said and done.
HERE'S THE WAY THIS HAS GONE DOWN:
you can and have placed a date in your profile that says "saved such-and-such date-last-year-whenever-recently"...you did it intentionally, and you know what that does:
that absolves you from having to admit the truth about your own experience in salvation, and how long it has taken you to get wherever you think, and say you are.
if you can't be honest about your own experience, absolutely not one thing you say can be upheld or trusted.
i couldn't agree more.
you've had years of knowing about Jesus Christ and what the scriptures say.
and yet you were still sinning.
then suddenly you place a particular date SAVED on your profile.
just be truthful and tell me why that date. why such a long process for Scott?
i'm not on ingoing rebellion Scott.
i'm too old and i've been there done all that.
i want Christ and His people.
that's my life.
but i still sin sometimes. i fall short.
you've either been given a new heart or you haven't.
a crushed and contrite spirit is all that's required for justification Scott.
read it.
the Spirit works in us until the day we die. that's sanctification.
you're such a heretic.
just amazing that you demand of others what you never did yourself and still don't do.
you said the Acts 2 people were saved in one day, repented and were baptized THEREFORE they had ceased from rebellion.
i showed you God is not like you.
yes, it is. and it's all of the Lord.
without Him you're less than nothing.
no it doesn't.
it teaches that those who practice sin are in bondage.
if we say we have no sin we're liars.
of course it is.
ya. do you know what He shed Blood for.
do you know what the Spirit does in a man.
you deny imputed righteousness...so how can you believe anything different.
youre so out of balance...you dont understand the working of God at all.
like i said.
i have committed and been forgiven of and overcome more sin than any of that PUNK list you circulate.
combine all your lists...thats me.
now look at me.
a happy old woman who goes to church and lives in peace and has a clear conscience.
i never doubt my salvation like you.
you have no faith.
really scott.
how do you know that.
im more than happy to post my real name, pictures of myself and my home, my pastor and my church family...a list of all my good deeds.
and i will place it alongside photos of myself and stories of my life before God saved me.
all my crimes.
i am pleased to do it.
i am pleased to step forward into the Light and stand in front of you and show my salvation is of The Lord.
no problem.
and you can decide how long it took for me to be changed - ill give you a hint - 3 months.
from being a worse criminal than you and DeSario could ever dream up....to a person no one i knew recognized.
cured from cancer and disease - radiant health, revitalization - no desire for the addictions which held me in chains. energy to go back to minister to others.
how am i doing Scott.
if you want proof, ill post it.
you can check up.
then you will make a public apology to this forum for the accusation that i am making excuses for some dark life i live in secret. what a bore you are. really. just an angry guy with a single mission. and its a flop since you go so far with - its not believable. you make a fool of yourself, and your folly is evident.
nobody on the planet and Gdo included believes with are without sin.
its a joke.
i have nothing to hide - i came into the Light of the Glorious Son of God and i am free and i have peace and assurance and no desire for the the things of the world or the flesh.
though i have ease with my Christian liberty...not all things are beneficial to me. so i make a conscious choice to say nah...or ya.
and you....can....not...stand that.
what do you want me to address. im familiar with them
ill show you my life. you can see if my life lines up with all that.
and how you measure up in comparison.
thats the real proof.
the rest is talk.
and your talk is cheap.
been there done it.
ya.
tell me about Scoot now.
no need to post scriptures.
be truthful about yourself or forget having any credibility at all.
why the saved date.
and what took so long.
and why do you sound now just like you did years ago.
i`ve seen all your old writings.
not bothering with typos.
who changes the heart skinski?
you?
i hope you are going to tell me WHY it is a long drawn out process.
why is a long drawn out process? who ever, ever told it wasn't? don't you know this is for life?
i really hope you have an answer for all the people you yourself have been leading to believe in sinless perfection (which you deny, but you know you have...and you most surely have seen the fallout. if you haven't there's really something wrong) - ceasing all known sin before God will save you.
you didn't. and you haven't.
you've called it by an infinite number of names. we know the schtick.
and you have made no effort whatsoever to talk directly to the Romans 6&7 people and self-taught who are actually listening to you about what it means and looks like to be saved. what it has been like for you.
you are responsible for what you teach and what you have said and done.
HERE'S THE WAY THIS HAS GONE DOWN:
you can and have placed a date in your profile that says "saved such-and-such date-last-year-whenever-recently"...you did it intentionally, and you know what that does:
that absolves you from having to admit the truth about your own experience in salvation, and how long it has taken you to get wherever you think, and say you are.
if you can't be honest about your own experience, absolutely not one thing you say can be upheld or trusted.
i couldn't agree more.
you've had years of knowing about Jesus Christ and what the scriptures say.
and yet you were still sinning.
then suddenly you place a particular date SAVED on your profile.
just be truthful and tell me why that date. why such a long process for Scott?
i'm not on ingoing rebellion Scott.
i'm too old and i've been there done all that.
i want Christ and His people.
that's my life.
but i still sin sometimes. i fall short.
you've either been given a new heart or you haven't.
a crushed and contrite spirit is all that's required for justification Scott.
read it.
the Spirit works in us until the day we die. that's sanctification.
you're such a heretic.
just amazing that you demand of others what you never did yourself and still don't do.
you said the Acts 2 people were saved in one day, repented and were baptized THEREFORE they had ceased from rebellion.
i showed you God is not like you.
yes, it is. and it's all of the Lord.
without Him you're less than nothing.
no it doesn't.
it teaches that those who practice sin are in bondage.
if we say we have no sin we're liars.
of course it is.
ya. do you know what He shed Blood for.
do you know what the Spirit does in a man.
you deny imputed righteousness...so how can you believe anything different.
youre so out of balance...you dont understand the working of God at all.
like i said.
i have committed and been forgiven of and overcome more sin than any of that PUNK list you circulate.
combine all your lists...thats me.
now look at me.
a happy old woman who goes to church and lives in peace and has a clear conscience.
i never doubt my salvation like you.
you have no faith.
really scott.
how do you know that.
im more than happy to post my real name, pictures of myself and my home, my pastor and my church family...a list of all my good deeds.
and i will place it alongside photos of myself and stories of my life before God saved me.
all my crimes.
i am pleased to do it.
i am pleased to step forward into the Light and stand in front of you and show my salvation is of The Lord.
no problem.
and you can decide how long it took for me to be changed - ill give you a hint - 3 months.
from being a worse criminal than you and DeSario could ever dream up....to a person no one i knew recognized.
cured from cancer and disease - radiant health, revitalization - no desire for the addictions which held me in chains. energy to go back to minister to others.
how am i doing Scott.
if you want proof, ill post it.
you can check up.
then you will make a public apology to this forum for the accusation that i am making excuses for some dark life i live in secret. what a bore you are. really. just an angry guy with a single mission. and its a flop since you go so far with - its not believable. you make a fool of yourself, and your folly is evident.
nobody on the planet and Gdo included believes with are without sin.
its a joke.
i have nothing to hide - i came into the Light of the Glorious Son of God and i am free and i have peace and assurance and no desire for the the things of the world or the flesh.
though i have ease with my Christian liberty...not all things are beneficial to me. so i make a conscious choice to say nah...or ya.
and you....can....not...stand that.
what do you want me to address. im familiar with them
ill show you my life. you can see if my life lines up with all that.
and how you measure up in comparison.
thats the real proof.
the rest is talk.
and your talk is cheap.
been there done it.
ya.
tell me about Scoot now.
no need to post scriptures.
be truthful about yourself or forget having any credibility at all.
why the saved date.
and what took so long.
and why do you sound now just like you did years ago.
i`ve seen all your old writings.
not bothering with typos.
A
I think you misunderstand the teachings of many people you claim are false because of some preconcieved notions of what you believe they are teaching.
"If someone can prove me wrong about something I love it because truth is truth and I want to align myself with it no matter what it is."
it will be interesting if someone can show you how the concept of original sin is in the Bible.
what do you think actually happened after Adam and Eve sinned and was cast from the Garden of Eden?
"If someone can prove me wrong about something I love it because truth is truth and I want to align myself with it no matter what it is."
it will be interesting if someone can show you how the concept of original sin is in the Bible.
what do you think actually happened after Adam and Eve sinned and was cast from the Garden of Eden?