Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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I am new to this debate and I am trying to see where their is disagreement so I can pick a side but I don’t see the problem. I do not feel like going through all 85 of the previous pages to find the dispute so could you point it out. As it seems now I think you are talking about CCC 841 but I am not sure.
Here's the situation as I understand it:

Our brother Jackson says that Muslims cannot be worshiping the same God as Christians because Muslims do not accept the trinity or agree that Jesus is God.

I've been using Romans 10:2 to try to show that this view also causes a problem for how Paul talks about the Jews. Jackson often uses the King James, so I've been using that for now.
Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Here, Paul is clearly saying that Jews have a zeal of God. the translator believes it is referring to the true God, because he capitalizes the word "God".

Jackson brought up the objection that the Jews of today are different than the Jews that were alive when Paul wrote the book of Romans.

This makes it slightly more complicated to talk about, but doesn't actually change the logic at all.

As a group, the Jews alive at the time when Paul wrote the book of Romans did not accept either the Trinity or agree that Jesus is God.
Yet Paul is clearly saying that they have a zeal of the true God.

So as I see it, and I mean this as gently as possible, our brother Jackson is currently looking for a way around this issue.

********

I also want to add that to me it's not really a big deal whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God or not. I don't by any means think that Muslims have very much correct information about God!

However, our brother Jackson takes it a step further. He says that anyone who thinks that Muslims and Christians worship the same God cannot be a Christian. He also says that anyone who says that Jews and Christians today worship the same God cannot be a Christian.

Imo, this unnecessarily excludes a great many people that I am confident are Christians and part of the body of Christ!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
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John 5
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Again, my brother Jackson, one may wish to be careful about the difference between
Believe
and
Believe in.

As Christians, we also believe Moses.
But we do not believe in Moses, we believe in Jesus!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Yes I would love to talk to a Catholic about this but none of them are still posting on this thread. CCC 841 has no biblical basis.
I'm not Catholic either.

As I understand it, one of the main tenets of Catholicism is that when the apostles and elders of the church (or their successors) all get together, their decisions are guaranteed by the holy Spirit.

This is based on Acts chapter 15.

Eastern Orthodox Christians believe this process continued as long as the entire church was joined, which ended in 1054, I think. Catholics believe this process has never stopped.

The most recent council is Vatican II, which produced several documents, including the lumen gentium. CCC 841 is basically quoting the lumen gentium.
 
May 4, 2020
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Does Paul say that the Jews think they have a zeal of God? Or does Paul say they have a zeal of God?

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

If the word "God" above does not refer to the true God, then it shouldn't be capitalized.
Would you agree with that?


I don’t see why you think that we don’t think that the word, God, in Romans 10:2 refers to someone other than Yahweh. I have already pointed out in my other replies that this refers to God. We are not denying that the fact that it refers to our God.
 
May 4, 2020
21
10
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Here's the situation as I understand it:

Our brother Jackson says that Muslims cannot be worshiping the same God as Christians because Muslims do not accept the trinity or agree that Jesus is God.

I've been using Romans 10:2 to try to show that this view also causes a problem for how Paul talks about the Jews. Jackson often uses the King James, so I've been using that for now.
Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Here, Paul is clearly saying that Jews have a zeal of God. the translator believes it is referring to the true God, because he capitalizes the word "God".

Jackson brought up the objection that the Jews of today are different than the Jews that were alive when Paul wrote the book of Romans.

This makes it slightly more complicated to talk about, but doesn't actually change the logic at all.

As a group, the Jews alive at the time when Paul wrote the book of Romans did not accept either the Trinity or agree that Jesus is God.
Yet Paul is clearly saying that they have a zeal of the true God.

So as I see it, and I mean this as gently as possible, our brother Jackson is currently looking for a way around this issue.

********

I also want to add that to me it's not really a big deal whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God or not. I don't by any means think that Muslims have very much correct information about God!

However, our brother Jackson takes it a step further. He says that anyone who thinks that Muslims and Christians worship the same God cannot be a Christian. He also says that anyone who says that Jews and Christians today worship the same God cannot be a Christian.

Imo, this unnecessarily excludes a great many people that I am confident are Christians and part of the body of Christ!

I just wanted to speak about the fact that Our God and Allah are not the same. Sura 5:18 points out that Allah is not a father. One of Yahweh’s most important characteristic is the fact that He is a father. The closest relationship that you can have with Allah is Slave to Master with Yahweh it is Son (or daughter) to Father. Our God is essentially different from their God. Yes I will agree that for us it is not a core doctrinal issue, but if Muslims worship a different God than the Catholic faith has an issue.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,910
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Yes, you can certainly say that Romans 10:2 does not refer to the true God.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

In the King James quoted above, the word "God" is capitalized, meaning that the translator believes it refers to the true God.

If it refers to a false god, then it should say
Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of god, but not according to knowledge.

So translator was wrong.

Can you follow what I am saying there?
Do you agree with what I am saying there?
Sorry my brother, I have different opinion.

I believe Paul want to say, Jews think they have zeal for true God, the fact is they establish their own god, not a true god

So does Muslim. That is why I believe catholic is lie.

You know the different between catholic and Paul?

Paul say Jews establish their own god

Catholic say Muslim adore the same god as catholic did.

Paul > Jews not have zeal to true god (their own establish god)

Catholic> Muslim adore true God.

Paul >< catholic
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,910
802
113
Does Paul say that the Jews think they have a zeal of God? Or does Paul say they have a zeal of God?

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

If the word "God" above does not refer to the true God, then it shouldn't be capitalized.
Would you agree with that?
No I am not agree.

Paul not say Jews think .....
But Paul say they establish their own god

It imply Jews don't have zeal to real god as they think.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,910
802
113
Again, my brother Jackson, one may wish to be careful about the difference between
Believe
and
Believe in.

As Christians, we also believe Moses.
But we do not believe in Moses, we believe in Jesus!
So does Jews they believe Moses but believe in god
 
May 4, 2020
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No I am not agree.

Paul not say Jews think .....
But Paul say they establish their own god

It imply Jews don't have asal to real god as they think.

The verse clearly says that Jews zeal for God. It doesn’t say their own God. Could you show me the verse where Paul speaks about Jews establishing their own god. This could just be when the Jews fell into idolatry as recorded in the Song of Moses in Deutoronomy ( I believe chapter 32). If Jews are truly followers of Judaism they are worshiping a true God.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,910
802
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The verse clearly says that Jews zeal for God. It doesn’t say their own God. Could you show me the verse where Paul speaks about Jews establishing their own god. This could just be when the Jews fell into idolatry as recorded in the Song of Moses in Deutoronomy ( I believe chapter 32). If Jews are truly followers of Judaism they are worshiping a true God.
You right it not state but imply.
Romans 10:3
“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”

To me Not accept God righteousness is not accept God

Establish their own righteousness in this context is establish their own God
 
May 4, 2020
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You right it not state but imply.
Romans 10:3
“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”

To me Not accept God righteousness is not accept God

Y

Establish their own righteousness in this context is establish their own God
You right it not state but imply.
Romans 10:3
“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”

To me Not accept God righteousness is not accept God

Establish their own righteousness in this context is establish their own God

I agree. I am just wondering, where did all the Catholics go
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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I don’t see why you think that we don’t think that the word, God, in Romans 10:2 refers to someone other than Yahweh. I have already pointed out in my other replies that this refers to God. We are not denying that the fact that it refers to our God.
I'm not sure who you are referring to as "we".

I agree that in Romans 10:2, it says that the Jews have a zeal for God, and that's the true God that it's referring to.

Our brother Jackson, and I mean this as gently as possible, seems to go back and forth between it being the true God and a false god.

(Is that a fair characterization, Jackson?)
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
113
I just wanted to speak about the fact that Our God and Allah are not the same. Sura 5:18 points out that Allah is not a father. One of Yahweh’s most important characteristic is the fact that He is a father. The closest relationship that you can have with Allah is Slave to Master with Yahweh it is Son (or daughter) to Father. Our God is essentially different from their God. Yes I will agree that for us it is not a core doctrinal issue, but if Muslims worship a different God than the Catholic faith has an issue.
I agree that it's not a core doctrinal issue.

And I also agree that Muslims say all kinds of wrong things about God.

But it raises a kind of boring philosophical question. When two people are talking about God, how many things can they say that are different before they are talking about a different God?
I think some ancient Greek philosopher used the idea of taking a ship and replacing a single board on it. Then replacing another board, and so on. When does it become a different ship?

And then there's the issue of the Jews. I'm fine with saying that Jews and Christians worship the same God, Jews are just wrong about a good many things.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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No I am not agree.

Paul not say Jews think .....
But Paul say they establish their own god

It imply Jews don't have zeal to real god as they think.
I don't think it implies that it anyway.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
113
But Paul say they establish their own god
I disagree the Paul says that.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

He says that they went about to establish their own righteousness, not their own god.

You could say that in your view, Paul is implying that they want about to establish their own God.

But I would disagree that Paul is implying that.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
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Does trying to establish your own righteousness automatically mean that you are not worshipping the true God?

If so, then it sounds like a person has to be 100% correct about God in order to worship God. Granted, in order to worship in spirit and in truth, you have to have the spirit and the truth!

There is this pesky passage in Kings

https://biblehub.com/2_kings/17-32.htm

https://biblehub.com/2_kings/17-33.htm

Obviously, the Samaritans are not worshiping or fearing the true God fully and completely. But their half-baked worship or fear is directed towards the true God.
 
May 4, 2020
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I disagree the Paul says that.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

He says that they went about to establish their own righteousness, not their own god.

You could say that in your view, Paul is implying that they want about to establish their own God.

But I would disagree that Paul is implying that.

I understand what you are saying. If the Jews are truly followers of Judaism then they have not created their own God. But Jews who are not following Judaism have their own sense of righteousness.