Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Does trying to establish your own righteousness automatically mean that you are not worshipping the true God?

If so, then it sounds like a person has to be 100% correct about God in order to worship God. Granted, in order to worship in spirit and in truth, you have to have the spirit and the truth!

There is this pesky passage in Kings

https://biblehub.com/2_kings/17-32.htm

https://biblehub.com/2_kings/17-33.htm

Obviously, the Samaritans are not worshiping or fearing the true God fully and completely. But their half-baked worship or fear is directed towards the true God.
You try to say Muslim worship true god? So ccc841 not lie, my brother, I know your goal is to say catholic not lie, but catholic is lie.

It is not they don't even believe the true God
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,912
802
113
I understand what you are saying. If the Jews are truly followers of Judaism then they have not created their own God. But Jews who are not following Judaism have their own sense of righteousness.
My brother Dan try to do what ever he can to defend catholic, that is why his opinion seem strange and unbiblical
 
May 4, 2020
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My brother Dan try to do what ever he can to defend catholic, that is why his opinion seem strange and unbiblical

Me, you, and Dan are not Catholics. We agree that the Jews worship a true God. Not sure what Dan thinks about the Muslim God but I think that he would that Allah is not Yahweh (If you don’t we can discuss it, but we both know that it is not a core doctrinal problem).
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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I am not altering but interpretating
(I've switched to a different kind of text Editor to compose in.
it doesn't capitalize the first letter of a sentence like the other one did, so I'll try to put in more new lines to make it more clear.)

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.


"they have a zeal of God"
becomes
"they think have a zeal of God"

imo, and I mean this gently, that's a very loose interpretation!

to be fair then, I think the lumen gentium:
In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

would be interpreted this way:
In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, thinking they profess to hold the faith of Abraham, think they along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
113
You try to say Muslim worship true god? So ccc841 not lie, my brother, I know your goal is to say catholic not lie, but catholic is lie.

It is not they don't even believe the true God
Do you have a comment about the Samaritans worshipping the true God?

Would you describe the Samaritans of that passage as worshipping the true God?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
113
My brother Dan try to do what ever he can to defend catholic, that is why his opinion seem strange and unbiblical
No, I don't do whatever I can to try to defend Catholicism.

but I am interested in reducing unnecessary division in the body of Christ!

As you probably already know, a lot of Protestants also believe that Jews and Christians worship the same God.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
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Me, you, and Dan are not Catholics. We agree that the Jews worship a true God. Not sure what Dan thinks about the Muslim God but I think that he would that Allah is not Yahweh (If you don’t we can discuss it, but we both know that it is not a core doctrinal problem).
Actually, if I understand my brother Jackson correctly, he does not believe the Jews and Christians worship the same God.

and he believes the people who say that Jews and Christians do worship the same God are not Christians.

But I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth, my brother Jackson! What do you say on the subject?
 
May 4, 2020
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(I've switched to a different kind of text Editor to compose in.
it doesn't capitalize the first letter of a sentence like the other one did, so I'll try to put in more new lines to make it more clear.)

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.


"they have a zeal of God"
becomes
"they think have a zeal of God"

imo, and I mean this gently, that's a very loose interpretation!

to be fair then, I think the lumen gentium:
In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

would be interpreted this way:
In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, thinking they profess to hold the faith of Abraham, think they along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.



Yes I agree that Romans 10:2 clearly says that Jews have a zeal for God. You can’t get around it. I don’t see how someone would get the Jews THINK they have a zeal for God from that passage. Dan I am just confused on your stance on CCC 841. Could you clarify if you agree with it or not? If we want to find the truth I think that the three of us should focus on the Jews first and then go to Muslims.
 
May 4, 2020
21
10
3
Actually, if I understand my brother Jackson correctly, he does not believe the Jews and Christians worship the same God.

and he believes the people who say that Jews and Christians do worship the same God are not Christians.

But I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth, my brother Jackson! What do you say on the subject?


Ok I think that the only way to get a productive conversation is for Jackson to state his claim about the Jews first.
 

Gregoryp

Well-known member
Jul 20, 2019
1,097
771
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Catholicism is paganism, a small amount of truth, lots of pedophilia, corruption, huge amassed wealth, all pomp and ceremony with no substance, re written scripture, made up laws, no compassion for there flock, they are just there to be fleeced. Detestable religion. And they create there own saints, who will be judged the same as anyone else and probably end up in hell.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,912
802
113
(I've switched to a different kind of text Editor to compose in.
it doesn't capitalize the first letter of a sentence like the other one did, so I'll try to put in more new lines to make it more clear.)

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.


"they have a zeal of God"
becomes
"they think have a zeal of God"

imo, and I mean this gently, that's a very loose interpretation!

to be fair then, I think the lumen gentium:
In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

would be interpreted this way:
In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, thinking they profess to hold the faith of Abraham, think they along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
I know you try to defend catholic. But I don't agree with your interpretation.

You have to read Romans 10 and put it on the context

10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

There are additional explanation that I consider to come to that interpretation


Zeal to God, but

1 first additional

But not according to knowledge, mean wrong

2. Second explanation

Ignorance of God righteousness, or lack of god righteousness mean wrong god

3. Thirth additional explanation

Not submitting unto the righteousness of god, mean not submitting to God

Zeal to true God but not submitting to God mean zeal to wrong God,

4 going to establish their own righteousness, to me like make their own god.

So I don't believe zeal to the true the true God doing such 4 things

My conclusion is not true God

Verse 4

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

To me mean the righteousness is Christ.

Not submit to Christ mean not submit to God or righteousness, or not adore to God.

Compare with ccc 841

Muslim and Christian adore the same god. That is pure lie
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,912
802
113
No, I don't do whatever I can to try to defend Catholicism.

but I am interested in reducing unnecessary division in the body of Christ!

As you probably already know, a lot of Protestants also believe that Jews and Christians worship the same God.
I don't think Catholic is member of the body of christ
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,912
802
113
Catholicism is paganism, a small amount of truth, lots of pedophilia, corruption, huge amassed wealth, all pomp and ceremony with no substance, re written scripture, made up laws, no compassion for there flock, they are just there to be fleeced. Detestable religion. And they create there own saints, who will be judged the same as anyone else and probably end up in hell.
I agree, catholic is not christian
 
May 4, 2020
21
10
3
Catholicism is paganism, a small amount of truth, lots of pedophilia, corruption, huge amassed wealth, all pomp and ceremony with no substance, re written scripture, made up laws, no compassion for there flock, they are just there to be fleeced. Detestable religion. And they create there own saints, who will be judged the same as anyone else and probably end up in hell.

I understand what you are saying because I am a Protestant. But I would say that is is paganism. Yes they have traditions that disturb me but they believe that Christ died, rose, and is coming again. So I wouldn’t call it paganism but I do understand where you are coming from. Our Catholic brothers and sisters do stuff that may infuriate us but I have no problem in calling most of them brothers and sisters in the Lord.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
113
Yes I agree that Romans 10:2 clearly says that Jews have a zeal for God. You can’t get around it. I don’t see how someone would get the Jews THINK they have a zeal for God from that passage. Dan I am just confused on your stance on CCC 841. Could you clarify if you agree with it or not? If we want to find the truth I think that the three of us should focus on the Jews first and then go to Muslims.
right, it sounds like we both agree that Romans 10:2 is saying the Jews have zeal for the true God.

I go through the posts one by one, so I don't know what our brother Jackson's response is to your post.

as far as CCC 841 goes, I mildly disagree with it.
it isn't the way I would describe the relationship between Christians and Muslims, but I think I understand where the Bishops at the second Vatican council were coming from.

I like the idea of talking about Jews and Christians first.

as I see it, Jews and Christians worship the same God.
but Jews are currently blinded about who Jesus is.
and this is all part of God's overall plan
Romans 11:25 For I don't desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, "There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 27 This is my covenant to them, when I will take away their sins."
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
113
I know you try to defend catholic. But I don't agree with your interpretation.

You have to read Romans 10 and put it on the context

10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

There are additional explanation that I consider to come to that interpretation


Zeal to God, but

1 first additional

But not according to knowledge, mean wrong
well, it doesn't mean it would be completely wrong.

2. Second explanation

Ignorance of God righteousness, or lack of god righteousness mean wrong god
I don't think that follows.


3. Thirth additional explanation

Not submitting unto the righteousness of god, mean not submitting to God

Zeal to true God but not submitting to God mean zeal to wrong God,
well, but then it wouldn't be zeal for the true God.


4 going to establish their own righteousness, to me like make their own god.
there's always a subjective aspect to any interpretation.

the King James translators capitalized "God", so they believed it referred to the true God, not the wrong God.

I believe every translation here does the same thing
https://biblehub.com/romans/10-2.htm

so while I can't prove an interpretation is right or wrong, I can say that you seem to be in a small minority.

when I find myself seeing something differently than most other Christians, that's when I try and ask myself, "why?"

So I don't believe zeal to the true the true God doing such 4 things

My conclusion is not true God

Verse 4

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

To me mean the righteousness is Christ.

Not submit to Christ mean not submit to God or righteousness, or not adore to God.
again, you can say that.
in my opinion, not submitting to God or understanding his righteousness is not exactly the same as not adoring God.

Compare with ccc 841

Muslim and Christian adore the same god. That is pure lie
that's one way to see it, but I I think there are other reasonable ways to see it as well.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,038
113
I don't think Catholic is member of the body of christ
what do you say about Protestants who believe that Jews and Christians worship the same God, are they members of the body of Christ?

I believe a person is a Christian, a member of the body of Christ, if they believe:

Jesus is the Christ, that is to say, he is the messiah, the anointed one of God.

Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
8,912
802
113
what do you say about Protestants who believe that Jews and Christians worship the same God, are they members of the body of Christ?

I believe a person is a Christian, a member of the body of Christ, if they believe:

Jesus is the Christ, that is to say, he is the messiah, the anointed one of God.

Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day.
Catholic pray to Mary, and lot of saint, catholic believe in purgatory, Mary is co redeemer, believe Eucharist, and all kind pagan tradition, lie about Peter, their church doctrine base on Peter, only Peter have the key to heaven and more lie.