Contradiction of WORDS

[Atwood]

No, I used Naaman to show an example of God's grace requiring a work to receive but Naaman doing that work in dipping did not earn him God's grace.

There was no work for salvation; it was for physical healing. You cannot establish doctrine merely by a story, you need propositional teaching; then understand the story in the light of the propositional teaching.

34 Surely he scoffeth at the scoffers;
But he giveth grace unto the lowly.

The way of grace cuts out boasting in one's works.
By grace you have been saved through faith, not of works lest SeaBass should boast.

11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.

 

[Atwood]

But where does the bible say Jesus paying the price for sin means man has to do nothing to be saved? That idea is being ASSUMED.

Lets see you prove that one.

If Jesus paying the price for sin is Jesus' free gift to man, does not Jesus have the right to put conditions upon His gift? Yes. Did Jesus put conditions upon His free gift? Yes, he put the conditions one must believe, Jn 8:24; repent, Lk 13:3,5 confess, Mt 10:32,33 and be baptized, Mk 16:16. Since Jesus already made the gift for free, there's nothing we can do to earn but just meet the conditions to receive it.

Double talk. The only possible condition is to believe, the only MUST I DO to be saved.
(repent: change mind from non-belief & making water an idol to trusting Christ)
Confess = agree with God as to who Christ is, defining the object of faith)
Mark 16:16 does not say that immersion is necessary for salvation.

Being immersed is a human work, & works do not save.
Not of works, lest SeaBass should boast.


24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.

16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

2 through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

15 But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.

17 For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.

 

[Atwood]

Joel & Abraham Prove that the Way of Salvation Did Not Change

Abraham & Joel Prove that the Way of Salvation Did Not Change.

There is no such thing as dispensational salvation. And those who advocate that there is a new way to be saved after the cross must give up on John 3 Nicodemus. Also they can quit quoting James on Abraham being justified by offering up Isaac, as that is OT.

There has ever been only one way to be saved in the Bible, & Abraham is the great OT example made a NT example, as in Romans & Galatians. Abe believed in God & it was reckoned to him for righteousness.

Ps 37 OT:
Trust in YHWH, . . .
5 Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
6 And He will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.
7 Rest in YHWH . . . .

Romans 10:13 has the call of faith that saves, & it is a quote from OT Joel, showing that the way of salvation has not changed.

The only refinement is that now the faith must be focused on the 2nd person of the Trinity, the Lord Jesus who is YHWH.

 

[posthuman]

God was teaching Nebuchadnezzar a lesson that God rules in all the kingdom's of men.

Nebuchadnezzar couldhave learned the lesson by taking Daniel's advice, Dan 4:27 "Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity."

Yet Nebuchadnezzar chose to learn the lesson the hard way "The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?" Dan 4:30

After 7 periods as an animal - "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: ..Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase." Dan 4:34,37


Nebuchadnezzar, after being punished, took Daniel's advice and broke off his iniquities by righteousness and worshipped God.

ROm 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Rom 10:9 is part of the NT law and not OT law. Nebuchadnezzar did not live under Christ's NT gospel therefore not accountable to it. At the time of Nebuchadnezzar Christ did not live on the earth in the flesh and had not been crucified so Nebuchadnezzar could not confess Christ nor believe in his heart God raised Christ from the dead for Christ had not lived much less died at Nebuchadnezzar's time.

i think you're missing my point -- Nebudchanezzar isn't an example of salvation through the gospel of Christ, sure,

but Nebudchanezzar was a pagan man full of pride and sin who was set aside for God's purpose before he himself ever knew God
(just like me & you - God chose us before we knew Him)
Nebudchanezzar was made strong and blessed of God even while he had no knowledge of Him
(just like me & you - we are not great kings, but were not cut off from birth in our iniquity as we deserved)
God determined by His will to bring Nebudchanezzar to a knowledge of the truth through the Lord's witnesses, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah.
(just like me & you - God brought people into our lives who showed us the truth)
Nebudchanezzar believed, but without full understanding, and his faith was choked off by cares of the world, until again he was shown signs, and believed again, but again his faith wavered
(just like me - & you? - though a seed was planted, in my life there were springs of growth and dying back in winters, so that my faith did not die, but did not prosper)
finally Nebudchanezzar became broken in spirit by God, to the end that he should fully know the power and dominion of Him
(just like me - & you? - through false understanding, weak faith and the result of sin, i was destroyed so that God's power and glory could be shown in me, and i could begin to fully know the truth)
and Nebudchanezzar was restored, regenerated in mind and spirit, and at this time praised God in humility, with his mouth and with his spirit
(just like me - & you?)

i do not know whether i will meet this man Nebudchanezzar in heaven - i think that we will - but whether or not he is an example of salvation, he is a type of it - having been foreknown and chosen by God, the truth found him although he wasn't looking for it, and the name of the Lord was revealed to him though he had not asked for it. (re: Isaiah 65:1, Romans 10:20)
and Nebudchanezzar believed in his heart, after much hard teaching, and confessed with his mouth that the Lord is God.

through all of this, what did Nebudchanezzar do to earn God's grace? did he go to Jerusalem seeking knowledge of the true God or seeking dominion and riches? but God brought him to the Truth, and blessed him with riches and empire. he reigned for over 40 years - and died, still a king, still with his empire intact and mighty. 43 years is a very long time for a king to have reigned in those days! God was for him, according to God's purpose.
even when he forgot the truth he had been shown, the Lord did not forsake him (just like me & you) - but chastised him, so that his understanding could be made perfect, and so that God alone should be glorified (just like me & you).

just like me and you, Nebudchanezzar did nothing to deserve the truth or to deserve to be blessed.
but he was blessed, and the truth sought him out and converted him, without that he did any work but to believe and to react according to what was revealed to him - and when his faith was set aside for pride, he was shown signs, chastised and brought back to the truth.

despite Nebudchanezzar's pride, despite his pagan ways, despite that he never worshiped at the temple or followed the Torah, God saw fit to bring him to a knowledge of Himself -- what God did for him was completely unmerited, unearned, undeserved and unlooked-for. this is the same way the Lord has shown grace to me.

 

[Atwood]

Could my tears forever flow,
Could my zeal no languor know,
These for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, & thou alone;
In my hand no price I bring,
Simply to thy cross I cling.


6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),

7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yes, Abraham "believed" God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. It does NOT say Abraham "believed only" in God and that "belief only" was counted as righteousness.


The issue with Naaman is did his obedience in working in going and dipping mean he earn his healing therefore his healing was not of grace?

He either earned it or it was of grace, not both at the same time....so his healing was earned and not of grace?

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace but of DEBT. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:3-5

Why would the word "only" even have to be applied?

The issue with Naaman is did his obedience in working in going and dipping mean he earn his healing therefore his healing was not of grace?

He either earned it or it was of grace, not both at the same time....so his healing was earned and not of grace?

No it did not mean he EARNED his healing . . . He was healed because of his faith . . . His faith in Jesus accomplishing his healing brought about his obedience and thus his healing.

Healing is of grace? or is healing a gift? I have been cancer free for 11 years and I consider my "healing" as a gift from God and I treasure it. Would I have been healed had I not gone through the process of chemo and radiation - I don't know - I put my faith in God to work in these things - Did my going to the doctors, and going through the treatments EARN my healing just as Naaman's dipping in the water? OR was it my faith in God? . . .you can believe what you want but I know it was all by the power of God to work in the situation and he blessed me in return for my faith in Him - just as Naaman.

 

[elf3]

Lets see you prove that one.



Double talk. The only possible condition is to believe, the only MUST I DO to be saved.
(repent: change mind from non-belief & making water an idol to trusting Christ)
Confess = agree with God as to who Christ is, defining the object of faith)
Mark 16:16 does not say that immersion is necessary for salvation.

Being immersed is a human work, & works do not save.
Not of works, lest SeaBass should boast.


24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.

16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

2 through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

15 But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.

17 For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.

SeaBass, Atwood is saying the exact same thing we are all trying to tell you and you keep responding with a contradiction. You say "The only must do to receive a free gift" if there is a "must do" added then it's not free. What you stated is a total contradiction.

It amazes me that you cannot understand that.

Maybe this will help you...Websters Dictionary Contradict "to deny the truth of (a statement).. to assert the contrary to..to be inconsistent with...to deny the truth or assert the contrary of something"

Contrary " opposed..opposite in nature, direction"

Does that help?

 

[Elin]

I have never argued one must earn his salvation. But the bible clearly teaches
God has put the conditions of obedient works upon His free gift of salvation and obeying in no way earns the free gift. As long as people will not understand
this simple point they will never understand biblical salvation.

There is NO CONDITION TO A FREE GIFT!
do I really need to give you the definition of free on this forum too?

The simple point of this contra-Biblical methodology is simply corruption of the language.

 

[elf3]

The simple point of this contra-Biblical methodology is simply corruption of the language.

Not only is the meaning of the Bible changed but now we have to change the meanings of the dictionary to fit our interpretation of the Bible. Heck might as well rewrite the dictionary too it's being done with the Bible.

Shoot the JW's change words in the Bible to fit their need to work for salvation and remove the deity of Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

More confusion on your part sea perch.......As you fail to understand that saving faith is a free gift void of any attachments as the disciples in the boat were already saved and had been scripturally identified with Jesus dia the 1st act of obedience (immersion)

As long as you keep taking verses out of context that have nothing at all to do with biblical salvation you will continue to trust into a gospel of a different kind which has no power to save.....

Salvation by grace dia faith period.....quit confusing the faith of daily living with saving faith which is based upon Jesus, HIS FAITH and HIS COMPLETED work.......and I have yet to see you apologize to me for misrepresented the truth about about the post I made when you said I called you a name.....so how many hail Campbells have you done to earn your salvation back.......which according to your gospel equals not being saved!

You also fail to see...God has dealt to EVERY MAN a MEASURE of FAITH (the ability to believe) and trust into the PERFECT FAITH of CHRIST...so point 2 and blame directed at God is moot!

So you have no problem putting fault and failure upon God for those that are faithless. You are saying it was God's fault those disciples had "little faith".

You also make God's command that men have belief/faith pointless and senseless. Why would God command men to have belief/faith if it is God who alone determines who has or has not faith? When in reality the command God gave to have belief/faith implies that man has both the ability and responsibility to have faith. Faith comes upon hearing the word of God, and then man forms belief in his heart, Rom 10:9,17.


Rom 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

The measure of faith does not refer to one's personal faith that comes by hearing and developed within the heart Rom 10:9,17 but the context shows it refers to a work or office given to a Christian.

The "measure of faith" in verse 3 is called "office/function" in verse 4 and "gifts" in verse 6.

Eph 4:11 list some "measures of faith" or "offices/functions" or "gifts"...."And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" (Also 1 Cor 12:10,11)


Also Eph 4:7 "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."

Eph 4:7 - A degree. The context is talking about "gifts" (4:8,11), therefore Paul is not saying that Christ gives differing degrees of "grace" (that results in salvation). All Christians receive the exact same forgiveness, and redemption. “Paul argued that Christians were to accept the fact that God designates certain individual differences among persons” (Caldwell p. 171). Hence this passage is teaching basically the same truth as that found in 1 Corinthians 12:4 ff and Romans 12:4-6, yet carefully note that in Romans 12:4 ff, Paul speaks of "spiritual gifts" and not-so spiritual gifts in the same context (12:6-8). Therefore some of the same principles that applied to spiritual gifts also apply to what people call "God-given abilities". Mark Dunagan.

 

[SeaBass]

There is something seriously wrong.. you take Jesus nail Him to the cross then say "not good enough"

How about you get your Bible and do some study. I'll suggest a couple words....grace, faith, salvation (saved) and works. Oh and one more word which is the biggest one...Sovereignty.

Jesus died for every one Heb 2:9. So why isn't every one saved if Jesus death and nothing more is necessary for one to be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

Both these contexts show works as a result of faith, and not faith itself as a work.

Your methodology is pure blindness. . .jerking Scriptures out of context,

misinterpreting their plain meanings, all for the sake of supporting your contra-Biblical theology.

Amazing!

You cannot be taken seriously.

Jesus saw their faith.
Jesus saw their works

Works are what Jesus saw and those works are called faith.

 

[SeaBass]

Sing it:

Marvelous, infinite matchless grace,
freely bestowed . . .

For by grace you have been saved through faith, not of works lest anyone should boast.

(No nonsense about "obedient works" vs "meritorious works" -- NO WORKS of man saves.

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

You serve either one of two masters. You either serve:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

Your theology has ruled out you serving #2.

 

[Elin]

Those who live a lifestyle of disobedience are not saved, and receive the consequences of their unbelief.

It's not complicated.

But if God's free gift of salvation has no conditions, then it would not matter if one was living a disobedient lifestyle.

Your statement "Those who live a lifestyle of disobedience are not saved..."
By this statement you are implying one must CONDITIONALLY live an OBEDIENT lifestyle to be saved.

You could use some more instruction in grammar.

So does living that obedient lifestyle earn one's salvation?

You didn't read this and post following it, did you?

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus saw their faith.
Jesus saw their works

Works are what Jesus saw and those works are called faith.

Another contradiction........ as faith and works are two different words and works are not faith......this again shows your inability to simply admit the simple truths of the bible........dude......I have never seen a bigger spinster in my life than you....what COC church do you go to....the I Can't SEE COC......or I AM BLIND TO SIMPLE WORDS COC.....WOW!

 

[Elin]

Yes, and the healing of the paralytic to whom Jesus said take up his mat and walk

had to do those things in order to be healed.

More trying to support your non-Biblical theology by redefining the meaning of the word "free,"

which means just that.

And did working in meeting the conditions EARN his healing or was it of grace?

What conditions? J

Read the account again.

Jesus gave no commands on which healing depended.

Obedience to Jesus commands depended on the healing.

So perverse is your methodology, that you can't get correct even something that simple.

 

[elf3]

Jesus died for every one Heb 2:9. So why isn't every one saved if Jesus death and nothing more is necessary for one to be saved?

Ok let me ask you a question...In the OT is Israel God's chosen people? Can God choose in the NT?

 

[posthuman]

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

You serve either one of two masters. You either serve:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

how do you understand that this same Paul can say our righteousness is not of works, but mercy, and we are saved by grace, not merit (Titus 3:5-7) ?

did Paul's theology rule out obedience?

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
(Romans 6:15)

 

[SeaBass]

Again you prove your grammatically ignorant view of (that not of yourselves) as it is directed at the word FAITH......! It is the faith of Jesus that saves us.....period....not of ourselves..it is a spiritual gift...period!

Why do so many verses say "your faith" as 2 Pet 1:5; 1 Pet 1:9,21; 1 Pet 1:7; 2 Thess 1:3 etc, etc?

So God is at fault, failure and blame for all those that are faithless?

 

[Elin]

Yes, Abraham "believed" God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
It does NOT say Abraham "believed only" in God and that "belief only" was counted as righteousness.

Such perversion of texts required to make their simple meaning true.

You cannot be taken seriously.