Contradiction of WORDS

[newbirth]

Hey NB sorry it has taken me so long to answer you on this..had that "life" thing ya know lol

When we turn over our lives through the "pleading" of the Holy Spirit we become a "new self" in God (Eph 4:22-24). When we confess our sins before God He forgives our sins and Remembers them no more (God doesn't think upon them anymore). But we are still sinners in that we can and will most likely sin and we still struggle with sin (Romans 7:7-25). When we sin again we fall on our knees, yet again, and repent of that sin. Now remember that grace isn't a license to keep sinning. When we become a "new self" in Christ that's when the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit begins. Through the Holy Spirit God is making us Holy. We will no longer be slaves to sin (as in we keep sinning for sins sake) but our "outlook" is different...we now want to live for God rather than ourselves.
We will now put God first and want to follow Him. We still have the sinful nature but that sinful nature no longer controls us (Romans 8:5).

I hope this explains my point. if not please let me know. I guess the only way we can understand this is through study and guidance of the Holy Spirit. I feel that an actual study of Romans is the best way to understand your questions in your post here. I am sometimes not the best at explaining things. As I said I think Romans can best explain this.

actually that is very good...but I lean more toward Peter when it comes to explaining sin ...and overcoming it....

2 Peter 1:3-11King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[elf3]

actually that is very good...but I lean more toward Peter when it comes to explaining sin ...and overcoming it....

2 Peter 1:3-11King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

When you think about it we are to use all of scripture for learning. That's why we are to study all of scripture and not just rely on one passage. When we only use one passage for a teaching or learning experience our theology could become quite messed up. And we're are to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding so we don't read into scripture what isn't there.

 

[elf3]

I don't and never will base my theology off of just one passage. I test and study the Bible. I test and study other writers basing their writting off of Biblical truth. I look at the attributes of God as found throughout the Bible. I base my theology of salvation, justification, sanctification ect. Off of what i find throughout the Bible. I don't EVER read or study the Bible without asking the Holy Spirit for direction and understanding. The Bible is the Word of God and only the Word of God can tell me how to live my life and what to believe. Only the Bible tells me that I mean so much to God that He died for me. The next time you read John 3:16 insert your name where it says "whosoever" and you will understand what I am saying.

 

[newbirth]

I don't and never will base my theology off of just one passage. I test and study the Bible. I test and study other writers basing their writting off of Biblical truth. I look at the attributes of God as found throughout the Bible. I base my theology of salvation, justification, sanctification ect. Off of what i find throughout the Bible. I don't EVER read or study the Bible without asking the Holy Spirit for direction and understanding. The Bible is the Word of God and only the Word of God can tell me how to live my life and what to believe. Only the Bible tells me that I mean so much to God that He died for me. The next time you read John 3:16 insert your name where it says "whosoever" and you will understand what I am saying.

ever since I joined CC It never ceases to amaze me the many different views people can have on one verse if scripture...

 

[elf3]

ever since I joined CC It never ceases to amaze me the many different views people can have on one verse if scripture...

Well that's because they only use one passage to explain something. They need to study all passages that deal with that particular topic. Only then can you truly understand.

Here is the way I feel...If God only says something once in the Bible it's important but not "killer" important. If He's says it more than once you best really study and pay attention. For example look at the first two of the ten commandments. They are almost identical dealing with idols in pretty close similarities. It's a shame He had to say it twice one after the other just so we "Might" pay attention.

 

[jdbear]

Originally posted by Elin,
I'm hearing your unbelief.

Correction, you're hearing me honestly questioning long held beliefs for good reason. The reason being the scriptures themselves.

Originally posted by Elin,
What else am I not hearing?

The idiotic idea that anyone who genuinely comes to repentance and faith in God through the OT scriptures is being influenced by the spirit of the antiChrist.

Originally posted by Elin,
All souls sin. So who pays for the repentant sinner?

Sin doesn't need to be "paid for". God mercifully forgives it:

"For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee." Ps.86:5 (Do you think you know God better than David did?)

"And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both." Lk.7:42 (So, was Jesus lying?)

It takes more than repentance to satisfy one's debt to justice.

Maybe to man it does, but not to a merciful God.

" but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word." Is.66:2 (Is the Father lying?)

"And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner...I tell you, this man went down to his house justified" Lk.18:13-14 (Does your belief in what Christianity has become make Jesus a liar?)

There is time to be done

There is time to be done? Where does the Bible teach that?

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." Is.55:7

"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice:" Mt.9:13

Originally posted by Elin
He said he came to die. . .because his death was the price of the ransom. His death was not incidental. It was his very purpose in coming.

"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." Mt.20:28

By His life we believe in God. The cost of our faith is His blood. This is the ransom...

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Le.17:11

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? He.9:13-14

In other words...cause repentance in you to live for God. (I'll bet your study in Lev. is a doosey.)

Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Ps.40:6

Elin, do you know why God doesn't require sacrifice? It's because of this:

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me...

(that is, the people who wanted Christ dead)

...but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Ge.50:20

(that is, God didn't send Christ to punish Him.)

Incidental? No. God used the evil of men and turned it for good. You should also read Mt.21:37 to show how God felt about sending His Son here.

Originally posted by Elin,
You deny the propitiation of his sacrificial death in Ro 3:25.

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood"

So God is appeased when we have faith in Him through the blood of Christ. That's what I've been saying all along. The 2nd half of that verse is really important too.

Originally posted by Elin,
ANATHEMA!

Blain did a thread titled "Attention all cc users please listen". You should read it, because you can be a very caustic person. (I can be too)

 

[jdbear]

=psychomom;1718233]well, 1 Pet 2:24 tells us:
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree...

so i think God looked at Jesus as sinful so we might 'die to sins and live for righteousness'.
but that's because Jesus did, according to that verse, actually bear our sins.

this is where looking at Leviticus, a beautiful picture of the Work of Jesus, comes in.
just briefly, in the OT sacrificial system set forth in God's Law, we find the example of
one's sins being transferred to a sacrifice, which is then slain.
Lev 1 starts right out with the command to bring an offering, a male without defect.
the priest lays his hands on the head of the offering, and it's killed.

in Lev 16, we see another example (shadow) of what was to come.
Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel and all their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and he shall lay them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands in readiness.
The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to a solitary land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. (v. 21-22)

what i'm saying is incredibly simplistic...
but Jesus is represented by both the animal slain at the Day of Atonement, and the goat released into the wilderness.

i'm sorry...i feel i'm not doing the subject justness.
it's not that easy to 'sum up'! lol

Youve completely misunderstood this text.We will be getting to Leviticus shortly, but if you would, I'd like you to consider this:
To what purpose*is*the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Is.1:11-12

Why...You did Lord...didn't You?

 

[dcontroversal]

ever since I joined CC It never ceases to amaze me the many different views people can have on one verse if scripture...

Well that is because people are not honest with what the scriptures have to say and or view scripture in the (darkness) of heretical views will come to incorrect views. A person who will believe in their own works, which is contrary to hundreds of scriptures in context will have erroneous views and misinterpret biblical truths......

 

[Skinski7]

sorry to snip your post..just trying to take the thoughts one at a time-ish.

i'm glad your friend is saved (?) and absolutely, Jews can learn from the OT Scriptures.

and there's this:

2 Cor. 5:21
He (God) made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

does that help at all?

One cannot literally be made into sin because sin is not a substance but a moral choice related to action. Paul is using "to be sin" as an expression in order to make a point.

Jesus was made sin in the sense that he was came down to our level in order to bring us up to his level. Here is a parallel passage...

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Flesh is not literally sinful but it is in the flesh that people sin. Thus Jesus Christ was incarnated in the likeness of sinful flesh (figurative speech) and condemned sin whilst in that flesh because He ruled over it in every way. Jesus did this that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us we when we follow His example by walking after the Spirit.

Paul is teaching exactly the same thing in Romans 8:3-4 as in 2Cor 5:21. Here is the proof...

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

"WE THEN" connects this verse to the verse before. Paul in essence writes "because of this" as "workers together with Him" because "working together with God" is what is in his mind when he writes 2Cor 5:21.

Paul pleads with the reader to not receive the grace of God to no working effect because he understands the active dynamic of "saved by grace THROUGH faith" which is what 2Cor 5:21 is all about.

False teachers snip 2Cor 5:21 completely out of its context and ignore the harmony of Paul's writings and ignore 2Cor 6:1 completely which is the VERY NEXT VERSE and they force the stupid legal exchange the Reformers invented 500 years ago into that text and then use it as a proof text. That is pure unadulterated dishonesty and deception to do that.

We become the "righteousness of God IN Him" when we ABIDE in the SPIRIT OF HIS LIFE.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

THAT (abiding) is what sets us free from the law of sin and death because when one abides in that state one cannot be sinning unto death. That is the freedom Jesus Christ brings yet people cannot see that because of the false gospel being preached which destroys the truth in the mind and therefore blinds the eyes.

Jesus taught this...

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Paul is not going to preach a different Gospel to Jesus and Jesus did not preach any legal exchange or sin debt being paid message. Jesus taught no such thing and neither does Paul. Bible Butchers preach such a message by twisting Paul and ignoring Jesus.

Jesus taught DO DO DO DO and ABIDE ABIDE ABIDE. There is nothing in the message of Jesus about simply "trusting and receiving," rather it is all about repenting and abiding.

Things are so messed up today and the mess is sending millions to hell because they are so deceived by the whore religion which poses as Christianity today.

 

[Skinski7]

sin has to be paid for, and 'the wages of sin is death'.

the first Adam brought death to all mankind, and we all participate in that sin.
therefore, The Second Adam (the Lord Jesus) lived the perfect life we never could,
and when He died, it was undeserved.

so then, why did He die?

The wages of sin being death is simply IF YOU SIN YOU DIE.

An act of rebellion to God necessarily brings spiritual death instantly. One can no longer be walking with God if they sin unto death because they have turned away from God in doing so, and added to that they have corrupted themselves inwardly.

The wages of sin being death has NOTHING to do with some debt needing to be paid. Sin is not a financial transaction.

When an individual sins they forsake God and destroy the connection to life. A sinner also brings condemnation upon their heads because they are guilty. They have willfully entered into agreement with the kingdom of Satan and thus fall completely under Satan's dominion.

God simply cannot and will not forgive an individual who remains in a rebellious state. To do so would not only undermine the justice of God but would also be a vanity because the forgiven individual would condemn themselves again because of Satan's dominion over their heart.

The reason Jesus came to this earth was to rescue sinners from Satan's dominion, not by paying a sin debt as a substitute but to present the NEW COVENANT which we can enter into via His blood. The blood of Jesus Christ is like God's signature on a legal agreement we can enter into and the cross is the means we enter into that agreement. The resurrection is proof for us that Jesus indeed has the power over the grave.

Jesus purchased a people from Satan's kingdom through being a kinsman of mankind. He came to restore the inheritance back to the human line by offering to marry a bride. Jesus obeyed God perfectly and was justly rewarded and we can become co-inheritors with Him if we forsake our old man who serves Satan are are born again as a new man who serves Christ.

No-one can keep serving Satan and enter the kingdom. That is why the flesh has to be crucified. We are to forsake Satan's kingdom for it no longer holds power over us because of the purchase made at the cross. We forsake one kingdom to enter another.

The false Gospel has perverted the truth down to some legal exchange which people receive as a free gift and they then continue to serve Satan because they are taught that they have sin in them due to Original Sin teaching. It is a total farce, a farce with grace consequences.

 

[SeaBass]

God gives unconditional grace because He loves unconditionally. God is not like man. To condition grace is to make it the result of merit.

Grace cannot be merited. Grace cannot be deserved. No man is ever worthy of grace and no man can ever repay Gods grace. Grace can only be accepted or rejected.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jn 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

Jude 1:21 "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

Both verses show God's love is conditional.

No one I have seen here as argued grace can be merited. The bible shows that free as grace comes with conditions and meeting those conditions do not earn the free gift,

 

[SeaBass]

Indeed, it is!

Where, what verse(s) does the bible say God's saving grace is unconditional?

One does not conditionally have to have faith to receive God's grace?

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Faith gives access to grace so how can one have access to grace without conditianally having faith?

 

[Skinski7]

Sin doesn't need to be "paid for". God mercifully forgives it:

"For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee." Ps.86:5 (Do you think you know God better than David did?)

"And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both." Lk.7:42 (So, was Jesus lying?)


Maybe to man it does, but not to a merciful God.

" but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word." Is.66:2 (Is the Father lying?)

"And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner...I tell you, this man went down to his house justified" Lk.18:13-14 (Does your belief in what Christianity has become make Jesus a liar?)


There is time to be done? Where does the Bible teach that?

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." Is.55:7

"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice:" Mt.9:13


"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." Mt.20:28

By His life we believe in God. The cost of our faith is His blood. This is the ransom...

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Le.17:11

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? He.9:13-14

In other words...cause repentance in you to live for God. (I'll bet your study in Lev. is a doosey.)

Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Ps.40:6

Elin, do you know why God doesn't require sacrifice? It's because of this:

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me...

(that is, the people who wanted Christ dead)

...but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Ge.50:20

(that is, God didn't send Christ to punish Him.)

Incidental? No. God used the evil of men and turned it for good. You should also read Mt.21:37 to show how God felt about sending His Son here.


"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood"

So God is appeased when we have faith in Him through the blood of Christ. That's what I've been saying all along. The 2nd half of that verse is really important too.


Blain did a thread titled "Attention all cc users please listen". You should read it, because you can be a very caustic person. (I can be too)

You are right on the money.

Check this out...

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

and

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

That is why Jesus died on that cross.

2 Cor 5:21 is saying the same thing...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

The actual MEANS (mention also in 2Cor 5:1) is via...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Here is another passage...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jesus did not give Himself to pay a sin debt as the sinners substitute as many believe. Nor did Jesus live an obedient life because we cannot whereby His righteousness is credited to our account. Those are lies of Satan and the lies of the ministers of Satan.

Jesus gave Himself for us to effect a total transformation of our heart via presenting the means of the New Covenant which we enter into by His blood in repentance and faith. This is EXACTLY what it teaches in Hebrews...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Instead of having some priest of the Old Testament approaching God on our behalf with an animal sacrifice we approach God directly with a TRUE HEART via the blood and can be cleansed once and for all. That is why there is a warning in Hebrews that says this...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

If we keep on sinning after being truly cleansed then we are mocking the cleansing process as being ineffectual. Jesus did not die for ongoing sin but rather to cleanse us from all sin leaving us in a pure state.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Jesus died to put in effect the New Covenant, it was the death of the testator. The blood of Christ is God's signature so to speak. We are enjoined into covenant with God by the blood of Jesus.

The wolves in the pulpits never examine these verses. They might snip a single verse out of its context and pile a bunch of rhetoric upon it whereby they twist it into a proof text for the Penal Substitution legal exchange. There is no support whatsoever for Penal Substitution in the Bible whatsoever. That doctrine was invented 500 years ago by the Reformers.

So many people believe the lies because it makes them comfortable and absolutely refuse to examine the scriptures. Jesus said this...

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

People refuse to do this...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Instead of doing that they...

1. Confess their sinfulness.
2. Trust that Jesus paid their sin fine on their behalf whereby it is no longer due and trust that Jesus also obeyed on their behalf to make up for their shortcomings.
3. Receive the free gift of salvation in which they feel secure.

All the while the heart stays exactly the same, wicked to the core because they never truly repented and therefore received nothing, except a delusion in the mind.

Salvation is not a free gift, it costs one everything. The "means of salvation" is the free gift. "Saved by grace THROUGH faith" is the free gift and we all have the opportunity to utilise it. "Eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ" is the free gift and we all have the opportunity to enter into that.

 

[SeaBass]

Faith would be the result of salvation, and good works proceed from faith.

Stupid logic, eh?

I can eat as many desserts as I want and steal as many dollars as I wish from my brother's wallet!! My parents totally won't punish me!

If God's grace is unconditionally as Elin says it is, you can do as you please and still receive God's grace. You can even be faithless and still somehow receive God's grace, (regardless of what Rom 5:2 says.)

 

[SeaBass]

Well, that explains a lot about your Scriptural understanding.


Repentance is in the disposition, not a physical action of "work."

Mt 12:41 "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here."

Jonah 3:7-10 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Jesus said Nineveh repented and Jonah 3:10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way.."

Nineveh's repentance was a WORK God saw just as faith is a work Jesus saw, Mk 2:5.

 

[SeaBass]

Now nothing SB posted proves his claims. Christ already did it all when He died on the cross. The Lord has laid on Him the iniquities of us ALL.

Then SB inserts words after walk in the light, instead of proving what that means and that it has something to do with salvation -- word not quoted.

SB also seems to be ignorant of the chastening wood-shed forgiveness.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.


John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.


Romans
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

[no WATER mentioned]

What verse says Christ will still forgive the sins of those that refuse to repent?

 

[Skinski7]

Where, what verse(s) does the bible say God's saving grace is unconditional?

One does not conditionally have to have faith to receive God's grace?

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Faith gives access to grace so how can one have access to grace without conditianally having faith?

Grace is unconditional.

What grace can produce is conditional because faith is required to make grace effectual to the saving of the soul.

That is why we access grace via faith. We put the grace of God to use by yielding to it and that is the dynamic that works a transformation of the heart. This is why we receive grace for obedience.

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:


Modern theology has redefined the terms.

The Lie
Grace = Free Gift/Unmerited Favour
Faith = Trust
Salvation = A Legal Position premised upon Jesus paying the sin debt owed.
Repentance = Confession of sinfulness.
Sin = Everything we do.

The Truth
Grace = God's free provision of divinely influencing the hearts of men.
Faith = The active dynamic of wholeheartedly yielding to God.
Salvation = A manifest state of walking in the Spirit crucified to the world and its lusts.
Repentance = A change of mind wrought via godly sorrow that necessitates a total change in actions.
Sin = Two different kinds. 1. Rebellion to God ie. doing wrong when you know it is wrong, this has stopped with a Christian. 2. Sins of ignorance ie. doing wrong ignorantly, these sins are to be confessed and addressed by a Christian as they grow.

 

[SeaBass]

I am concerned.

You're not concerned with Elin stating the wicked will be saved when the bible says the wicked will be lost, Mt 13:49?

Why are you so hung up on "We are saved by Grace through Faith" and as the result of that Salvation we will do good works?

I'll reword your comment, then address it. So one can live his entire wicked life and still be saved? Yes. In the eyes of God, every single person on this Earth lives a despicable life because of our sin (small or large) every hour of every day. There is absolutely no way that we can work off that sin. It is that Salvation that God provided us by the Blood of Christ that, (Gift of Grace, Salvation) through our Faith in Christ (total, unconditional belief), covers our wicked life. I hope that you don't see your life as not being wicked in the eyes of God.

If you have accepted that Gift of Grace that God has provided you, put that Salvation to work and take the Gospel to the lost world. Don't keep it bound up in the never ending cycle of the lost-saved-lost-saved... struggle.

What verse says the wicked will be saved?

Wow...man-made theology now has the wicked being saved for no other reason that to avoid the fact one must do obedient works to be saved, Heb 5:9; Rom 6:16.

You post "If you have accepted that Gift of Grace that God has provided you,...."

You just made grace conditional upon one accepting it. Elin says it is unconditional. You two need to get together and get your ideas straightened out.

 

[dcontroversal]

Where, what verse(s) does the bible say God's saving grace is unconditional?

One does not conditionally have to have faith to receive God's grace?

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Faith gives access to grace so how can one have access to grace without conditianally having faith?

What you fail to understand is the simple fact that Paul is writing unto people who are already saved and that the just shall live by faith.....A person who has been REGENERATED and BORN of the SPIRIT is eternally sealed and saved and after salvation a person can do one of two things....walk faithfully before God or be rebellious....Rebellion leads to chastisement and Faithfulness leads to continual blessing by God.....and why not quote the whole context instead of one verse out of context which has nothing at all to do with the eternal life as found in Christ by those who believe!

 

[Skinski7]

If God's grace is unconditionally as Elin says it is, you can do as you please and still receive God's grace. You can even be faithless and still somehow receive God's grace, (regardless of what Rom 5:2 says.)

Grace is unconditional. I think you are just confused with the terms.

Think of grace as a road map which it to be followed. Faith is the following. Salvation is the destination.

Thus one can receive the road map but refuse to follow it and never read the destination.

Calvinists teach that grace is an irresistible pull that drags unwilling people to a destination by making them willing. They teach it this way because they believe in Total Depravity which teaches that human beings are born disabled in regards to being able to obey God. Thus grace to these people is a disability offset not a road map. They perceive grace more as a kidnapper who grabs you and takes you to the destination.

It is stupid theology and is full of contradictions. I think the bottom line though is that it is a theology in which people never have to take responsibility for their actions because "God does it all." Thus all responsibility it put upon God and they just wait and see what happens. That way one can be "partially obedient" as they see fit and mix worldliness with their Christianity.