Contradiction of WORDS

newbirth · Oct 17, 2014

where do these boast of works?.... Luke 13:26-27King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Do these not inherit the kingdom because of their good works?
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

and these everlasting fire...for no works

[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

dcontroversal · Oct 17, 2014

newbirth said:

MANY will come to me in that day SAYING..HAVE WE NOT...

1. Done many wonder works in thy name
2. Have we not cast out demons in thy name
3. Have we not prophesied in thy name

AND I WILL SAY TO THEM...Depart for me ye workers of INIQUITY for I NEVER KNEW YOU

Matthew 7:21-23

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE TITUS 3:5
IT is a GIFT of GOD..NOT OF WORKS
IF YOU BELIEVE WITH YOUR MIND and CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THOU SHALT BE SAVED!

Again the Book of Galatians states clearly that if you BLEND FAITH and WORKS for salvation you preach a GOSPEL of a DIFFERENT KIND which has no power to save and is double cursed to hell!

elf3 · Oct 17, 2014

newbirth said:

If we then must still work to be justified before God what did the death and ressurection of Jesus accomplish?

elf3 · Oct 17, 2014

elf3 said:

Romans 3:21-26

elf3 · Oct 17, 2014

elf3 said:

If we believe in the full atoning work of Christ on the cross then why do we "feel" we have to do good works to merit our salvation? Why must we "read into" the Bible that we HAVE to do good works to justify ourselves before God? We are justified by the merit of Christ alone we cannot atone for our sins in any way.

newbirth · Oct 17, 2014

dcontroversal said:

you can take the scripture to make your doctrine....
first point is.... not everyone....shall enter but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven

.[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
second point ...
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
He does not say all who come...he says many....
third point.....

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

newbirth · Oct 17, 2014

elf3 said:

Christ atoned for our sins ....
Romans 3:24-26King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

he made us clean....and teaches us to continue in his teachings that we may remain clean

Colossians 2:5-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

elf3 · Oct 17, 2014

newbirth said:

Christ atoned for our sins ....
Romans 3:24-26King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

he made us clean....and teaches us to continue in his teachings that we may remain clean

Colossians 2:5-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

In what you just wrote and quoted where are our works? Where do the works you say we need fit into this?

dcontroversal · Oct 17, 2014

elf3 said:

None found...again we see this over and over again.....If works can earn our buy salvation the no reason for Jesus' substitutionary death.....

elf3 · Oct 17, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Yeah pretty sad huh

kepha · Oct 17, 2014

"Salvation by works apart from grace" was a heresy condemned by the Church about 1400 years ago (6th century). Buying salvation is the oldest heresy called Simony, named after Simon the Magician.

The faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” You have a problem showing me from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

dcontroversal · Oct 17, 2014

elf3 said:

Yeah no doubt and to me one of the biggest tragedies is the fact that every one who uses JAMES as their main argument for works that buy salvation fail to see and understand the two main words of the James text...SHOW ME.....while rejecting the words of Paul who wrote almost half of the N.T.

Faith plus works for salvation=gospel of a different kind with no power to save and double cursed to hell...GALATIANS
We conclude a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT the DEEDS of the LAW....ROMANS
WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF JESUS....GALATIANS

dcontroversal · Oct 17, 2014

kepha said:

"Salvation by works apart from grace" was a heresy condemned by the Church about 1400 years ago (6th century). Buying salvation is the oldest heresy called Simony, named after Simon the Magician.

The faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” You have a problem showing me from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

Romans and Galatians teach we are justified by the FAITH of JESUS and not works...
Galatians also teaches that faith plus works for salvation= a gospel of a different kind with no power to save and is double cursed to hell
James is talking about how men can see our saving faith which we already have...SHOW ME YOUR FAITH!

kepha · Oct 17, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Please don't quote me and ignore it at the same time. Try reading the post before quoting, give a reply of the context of the above quote in your post, and hopefully you can make some sense.

Justification leads to salvation. You don't put on goodie-two-shoes and earn salvation by works apart from grace. Who invented such idiocy? Love is an action, an act of the will, a work. That's faith that James is talking about. Paul often uses "works" to mean works of the Law. They are totally different works. They are frequently mixed up by the "faith alone" fans.

dcontroversal said:

OK...what does it look like?

Where did Jesus ever separate love from faith?
Matt. 5:2-11 - Jesus' teaching of the beatitudes goes beyond faith - being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. They are acts of the will that are necessary for a right relationship with God.

Matt. 5:16 - Jesus confirms this by teaching, "let your light shine before men that they may see your 'good works' and give glory to God." Good works glorify God and increase our justification before the Father.

Matt. 5:39-42 - give your striker the other cheek, give away your cloak, and go with him two miles. This faith in action, not faith alone.
Matt. 5:44-47 - this means even loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us. Love is a good work, an act of the will.

Matt. 6:12 - forgive us our sins, not by how much faith we have, but as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Matt. 22:39; Mark 12:31 - Jesus says You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love is a good work - an act of the intellect and will.

John 5:36, 10:37-38 - Jesus emphasizes that His works testify to who He is. We must imitate Christ's works to be more fully united with Him.

read more: Scripture Catholic - JUSTIFICATION

I could be wrong but I thought it was spelled "controversial".

elf3 · Oct 18, 2014

kepha said:

Please don't quote me and ignore it at the same time. Try reading the post before quoting, give a reply of the context of the above quote in your post, and hopefully you can make some sense.

Justification leads to salvation. You don't put on goodie-two-shoes and earn salvation by works apart from grace. Who invented such idiocy? Love is an action, an act of the will, a work. That's faith that James is talking about. Paul often uses "works" to mean works of the Law. They are totally different works. They are frequently mixed up by the "faith alone" fans.

OK...what does it look like?

Where did Jesus ever separate love from faith?
Matt. 5:2-11 - Jesus' teaching of the beatitudes goes beyond faith - being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. They are acts of the will that are necessary for a right relationship with God.

Matt. 5:16 - Jesus confirms this by teaching, "let your light shine before men that they may see your 'good works' and give glory to God." Good works glorify God and increase our justification before the Father.

Matt. 5:39-42 - give your striker the other cheek, give away your cloak, and go with him two miles. This faith in action, not faith alone.
Matt. 5:44-47 - this means even loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us. Love is a good work, an act of the will.

Matt. 6:12 - forgive us our sins, not by how much faith we have, but as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Matt. 22:39; Mark 12:31 - Jesus says You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love is a good work - an act of the intellect and will.

John 5:36, 10:37-38 - Jesus emphasizes that His works testify to who He is. We must imitate Christ's works to be more fully united with Him.

read more: Scripture Catholic - JUSTIFICATION

I could be wrong but I thought it was spelled "controversial".

This thing you posted to look at was written by a guy named John Salza. He happens to be a Catholic Appologist who defends the Catholic religion.

Personally I follow what the Bible says.

kepha · Oct 18, 2014

elf3 said:

It comes in handy. Sometimes I forget to post the link. My bad.

The is a purely Protestant doctrine, " I follow what the Bible says", so technically, you follow the reformers opinions of what the Bible says.

elf3 · Oct 18, 2014

kepha said:

Nope incorrect assumption. Now I do read a lot and I listen to many sermons and my dad is actually a pastor. I test everything I read and listen to against the Bible. I never just assume a teaching is correct without testing against the Bible. I will actually go home after church (I belong to a Christian Missionary Alliance Church) and put the sermon up against the Bible.

For you to say that is a judgemental assumption which in this case was wrong. And besides..Every Christian should follow what the Bible says.

dcontroversal · Oct 18, 2014

elf3 said:

No doubt and his mouthy uncalled for stupid comment on how to spell controversial does not take into account that the name I chose came from an AOL account that I established 10 years ago and dcontroversial WAS ALREADY taken...so his attempted plug was moronic at best and uncalled for!

Ella85 · Oct 18, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Well I actually thought of it in a clever and creative way of spelling it as in ..........

controVERSAL as in -

bible VERSES etc etc....

dcontroversal · Oct 18, 2014

Ella85 said:

Well, I would concur...for sure......It is one thing to disagree with someone...it is another thing to take a word and then try and make someone look stupid...because they think you actually misspelled it.........!

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