Contradiction of WORDS

[Elin]

can faith without works save you?......simple question yes or no answer....

'Tis not a simple question when it is so misrepresented by many.

To avoid further misrepresentation, its answer must be well qualified.

We are saved by faith only to then do the good works of faith.

 

[newbirth]

Here is the misconception....Eph 2:8,9 tell us its by faith not of works. This could be taken to an extreme which works proponents accuse faith alone proponents of. We are not saying "don't do good works". That would be against what the Bible tells us. James tell us that our faith should be shown by the "good" that we do.

For example if we see someone in need of food we should help IF we are able because of our faith in God. If we were to completely ignore that person our faith would mean nothing.

Our faith in God should be seen, by others, by the good we do. Now on the other side if we do good works to kind of "show off" our faith that's equally as bad.

We are justified by our faith which should be shown by the good we do.

Is that understandable?

you conclude that...James tell us that our faith should be shown by the "good" that we do.James is explaining how faith works...Faith comes by hearing the word.....The word says repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins....when you hear you believe and you do....Our faith in God should be in obedience to his words, which covers all good works....

John 14:14-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

 

[newbirth]

'Tis not a simple question when it is so misrepresented by many.

To avoid further misrepresentation, its answer must be well qualified.

We are saved by faith only to then do the good works of faith.

it is simple James says ......faith without works is dead....you are saying we are saved by faith without works...so in essence you are saved by a dead faith....

 

[newbirth]

No I teach the truth and you miss the context of James which is SHOW ME YOUR FAITH....Go read Romans chapter three and jive your works for salvation with what Paul wrote.....Therefore we conclude that a man is justified (rendered legally innocent)by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW (WORKS)....wake up before you find yourself attempting to come by some other door and get cast out for boasting in your works over the faith of Jesus.....

deeds of the law ...are you under the law?...or is anyone doing works of the law?....how does one do that?....we are of faith so it is works of faith.....

 

[Elin]

'Tis not a simple question when it is so misrepresented by many.

To avoid further misrepresentation, its answer must be well qualified.

We are saved by faith only to then do the good works of faith.

It is simple James says ......faith without works is dead....you are saying we are saved by faith without works...so in essence you are saved by a dead faith....

Yes, it is simple.

I am saying that we are saved by faith and not works.

That is not the same as faith without works.

 

[elf3]

you conclude that...James tell us that our faith should be shown by the "good" that we do.James is explaining how faith works...Faith comes by hearing the word.....The word says repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins....when you hear you believe and you do....Our faith in God should be in obedience to his words, which covers all good works....

John 14:14-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

That's funny you saying I concluded. I don't conclude anything. I study!

For you to say that as a judgemental statement is completely wrong of you.

Funny how those who won't accept truth get so defensive.

 

[elf3]

you conclude that...James tell us that our faith should be shown by the "good" that we do.James is explaining how faith works...Faith comes by hearing the word.....The word says repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins....when you hear you believe and you do....Our faith in God should be in obedience to his words, which covers all good works....

John 14:14-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

The problem is that you are reading James for James as its own entity. You cannot do that. You MUST test scripture against scripture when studying.

What I mean is this..when you study something in James look at what the other books of the Bible say about the same subject. Look at James, Ephesians, Romans, Galatians ect. Ect. To see what they say. The Bible is a whole not parts.

If you take the Bible as parts you will end up with a "parts" belief that WILL contradict itself.

 

[dcontroversal]

The problem is that you are reading James for James as its own entity. You cannot do that. You MUST test scripture against scripture when studying.

What I mean is this..when you study something in James look at what the other books of the Bible say about the same subject. Look at James, Ephesians, Romans, Galatians ect. Ect. To see what they say. The Bible is a whole not parts.

If you take the Bible as parts you will end up with a "parts" belief that WILL contradict itself.

Like works for salvation as one example......Again, regurgitated Cain-ology and offering works in place of faith...Cain offered his own works and God rejected it, but received the offering of Abel which was indicative of faith and blood......!

 

[newbirth]

That's funny you saying I concluded. I don't conclude anything. I study!

For you to say that as a judgemental statement is completely wrong of you.

Funny how those who won't accept truth get so defensive.

Those were your words and you stand by them so you conclude....James tell us that our faith should be shown by the "good" that we do

 

[elf3]

it is simple James says ......faith without works is dead....you are saying we are saved by faith without works...so in essence you are saved by a dead faith....

Ok since from what I understand you are claiming that we are "justified" or "deemed righteous" before God in part by our works?

If this is what you believe then show at least one verse that says "we are "justified" or "deemed righteous" by our works.

 

[dcontroversal]

deeds of the law ...are you under the law?...or is anyone doing works of the law?....how does one do that?....we are of faith so it is works of faith.....

Paul wrote under inspiration of the Holy Spirit and if you think that the deeds of the law doesn't equal works then you are partially blind!

 

[dcontroversal]

Ok since from what I understand you are claiming that we are "justified" or "deemed righteous" before God in part by our works?

If this is what you believe then show at least one verse that says "we are "justified" or "deemed righteous" by our works.

That is exactly what he believes and even denies that the deeds of the law does not equal works, while twisting words around in an attempt to side step the works that he teaches for salvation, while also taking James out of context......go figure that one for sure!

 

[elf3]

That is exactly what he believes and even denies that the deeds of the law does not equal works, while twisting words around in an attempt to side step the works that he teaches for salvation, while also taking James out of context......go figure that one for sure!

Yeah I have seen that. Thus is why I posted this "challenge" too him. There is actually one verse that does say that those who follow the law are seen as righteous. But it's talking about the OT law and Paul is saying that it is impossible for man to follow the Mosaic Law that completely. And besides we are now no longer under the cerimonial law of the OT.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yeah I have seen that. Thus is why I posted this "challenge" too him. There is actually one verse that does say that those who follow the law are seen as righteous. But it's talking about the OT law and Paul is saying that it is impossible for man to follow the Mosaic Law that completely. And besides we are now no longer under the cerimonial law of the OT.

Yeah no doubt for sure.....seems to be the norm for sure......if works are so important for biblical salvation then why does Jesus tell those who brag about their works in his name to depart from him as workers of iniquity....!

 

[elf3]

Yeah no doubt for sure.....seems to be the norm for sure......if works are so important for biblical salvation then why does Jesus tell those who brag about their works in his name to depart from him as workers of iniquity....!

Not only that but if works are a way we can be justified before God then why did Jesus have to die?

 

[newbirth]

Yes, it is simple.

I am saying that we are saved by faith and not works.

That is not the same as faith without works.

and what you are saying is wrong........we are saved by grace through faith...your faith has no works...can that faith save?

 

[dcontroversal]

Not only that but if works are a way we can be justified before God then why did Jesus have to die?

Yeah no doubt for sure......still we see that they fail to understand that our works do not save us and or keep us saved...they also fail to understand that the works that will be found in a believers life are the result of JESUS doing the work through us as a living sacrifice........If a man is saved by works, kept saved by works then a man has the right to boast and brag about his works....Jesus will say to those who boast in their works in his name to depart from him as workers of iniquity...goes to the root of salvation for sure as they attempted to come by some other door...that door being their works!

 

[newbirth]

Ok since from what I understand you are claiming that we are "justified" or "deemed righteous" before God in part by our works?

If this is what you believe then show at least one verse that says "we are "justified" or "deemed righteous" by our works.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 

[dcontroversal]

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

What you are blind to is the fact that JAMES is speaking to the point of how a MAN can see the INWARD faith that one has....so keep taking these verses out of context and when you stand before GOD as ONE who boasts in his works it will not be good for YOU.....

SHOW ME YOUR FAITH....

For every verse you yank out of context to attempt to prove works for salvation there are numerous that point to faith and faith ONLY so I suggest you start looking at the WHOLE of the scriptures instead of through a STRAW with it's limited view...

A man is justified by the FAITH OF JESUS and not by our own works....the very doctrine you teach is slammed by PAUL in Galatians and called heresy, has no power to save or keep saved and is DOUBLE CURSED to hell! Galatians 3:16-21

 

[newbirth]

Paul wrote under inspiration of the Holy Spirit and if you think that the deeds of the law doesn't equal works then you are partially blind!

scripture says different...
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified..

James 2:20-26King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.