Ok, thank you. I think I understand your position. To make your position as clear as possible, I listed it in bullet form.
TDW's understanding of events per Luke 21 and interpretation of the phrase "before all these":
1) Apostles' Persecution/Martyrdom & Testimony
2) 70 AD Destruction
3) Deception
4) War
5) Famine
6) Pestilences
7) Fearful sights in heaven
8) Time of Tribulation
8) More Fearful sights in Heaven and on Earth
10) 2nd Coming
CLOSE! You
almost got it (better than yesterday! lol)
Allow me to correct just a bit, to better reflect my actual viewpoint:
[you said] TDW's understanding of events per Luke 21 and interpretation of the phrase "before all these" [I'll insert my corrections/clarifications]:
1) [so "
BEFORE ALL the beg. of BPs," 1&2] Apostles' Persecution/Martyrdom & Testimony
2) 70 AD Destruction
a) also the "SEE-then-FLEE" of Lk21:20-21, when they "see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (
Lk19:41-44; Matt22:7);
b) and Jesus' words in "
Matt24:2/Mk13:2/Lk21:5-6" about the Temple destruction (Dan9:26b)
c) "great distress in the land, and WRATH upon THIS people" (Matt22:7 "...when the king heard
thereof, he was WROTH: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and BURNED UP THEIR CITY"--same thing Jesus spoke of ON the very day that the 69 Weeks were concluded [Palm Sunday] Lk19:41-44, etc);
[all of these being events surrounding 70ad--vv.12-24a,b]
d) [insert here-->] "24b
and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"
"24c
AND Jerusalem shall be
TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles
UNTIL... [
this part of the verse is what
follows on from the 70ad events--"desola
TIONS are determined" (very lengthy duration! So
Lk21:24b/c here [and v.32's "TILL all shall have taken place"] are the
only LENGTHY parts--
"Historicist-like" Ha
)--and doesn't END till Christ's far-future 2nd Coming
to the earth (per Rev11:2)
after the below items take place...]
------------
[then
sequentially later / after the above (not "immediately" after the 70ad events ^ )--the following takes place... all WITHIN the "in quickness [noun]" time-period (Rv1:1/1:19c/4:1) that we commonly call the Tribulation Period, i.e. 7 yrs leading up to Christ's RETURN to the earth]
3) Deception (both Matt24:
4 / Mk13:
5 provide a further/additional detail here [same matter and time-slot as Lk's]--"take heed that
'A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis]' not
deceive you, [
FOR MANY shall come in my name, saying...]" (warning about A CERTAIN ONE IN PARTICULAR!) ... so THIS is the INITIAL "birth PANG" of "the beginning of birth PANGS"--This corresponds with all of the following passages:
a) the INITIAL "birth PANG" Paul speaks of in 1Th5:1-3 (the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" time-period of judgments unfolding upon the earth, time-wise--i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" time period we call the Trib);
b) the "
whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PAROUSIA [king-leader stuffs]" of the man of sin ("IN his TIME") 2Th2:9a,8a,3b ("
be revealed"), i.e.
SEAL #1 (rider on white horse WITH A
BOW [
"bow" often meaning
"DECEPTION" in scripture]--"
a crown" was "given unto him: and HE WENT FORTH conquering and to conquer");
c) "
prince THAT SHALL COME / COMING" Dan9:26
b (the "
he / he / he" of v.27a/b/c--corresponds to the "
who [whose] /
who /
who [whom]" of 2Th2's "man of sin");
and where 2Th2:4a [not b] parallels the precise wording about the SAME PERSON in Dan11:36's
regime-change person: "
king [or, leader] shall do according to his will" (note the wording in that verse, because it describes this same person elsewhere in related passages);
d) "ye have heard [phrase indicating a reference back to OT info] that
antichrist SHALL COME..." (1Jn2:18);
e) [and
possibly Jesus referencing him, where He'd said...] "if
another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (Jn5:43);
[ALL of those ^ are the START / KICK-OFF-point of the 7-yr Trib, far-future to when spoken/written, i.e. its INITIAL "ARRIVAL" / FIRST MOMENT]
[...and continuing on...]
4) War (Seal #2; ALSO in "the beginning of birth pangs"--early in Trib)
5) Famine (Seal #3--BoBPs too--early in Trib)
6) Pestilences (part of the beginning of birth pangs also--early in Trib)
7) Fearful sights in heaven (Seal #6, early in the Trib; corresponds with the wording in Joel 2:31 "moon into blood"... "BEFORE the GREAT" aspect of the Trib, i.e. BEFORE the SECOND HALF / GREAT Trib)
8) Time of Tribulation
(
so ALL of 3-8 is the STARTING PORTION of the 7-yr period--aka "the
BEGINNING of birth PANGS"--
AS THE FIRST PART OF what we commonly call the [
entire] "tribulation period" / 70th Week... THESE "BoBPs / SEALS" lasting close to 1.5 to nearly 2 yrs, something like that--all being WITHIN the "in quickness [noun]" time-period that Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 refers to, which is what we label the 7-yr Trib--so all these fall WITHIN that, as the FIRST PORTION of it)
------------
[the following (9-10) would occur at some point
following the above-mentioned SEALS / BEGINNING of birth pangs; so #9 could happen possibly
any time during the 7 Trumpet judgments, or more likely the the last 3 Trumpets (
5th Trumpet is the
MID-point) and the 7 Vial judgments (so sometime during the total of 1260 days / second half, aka "the GREAT tribulaton"), the following occurs...]
8)[9] More Fearful sights in Heaven [rather, specifically "
in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars"--so technically, here, "the heaven
S" not necessarily "heaven" as back in the
earlier v.11
b] and on Earth [yes,
all of v.25 (Lk21) being DISTINCT from the ones having already been spoken of
in verse 11b which were part of the
earlier SEALS;
V.25 is pretty picking up from where the beginning of birth pangs (i.e. Seals) left off, or possibly mid-trib onward... and lead to...];
10) 2nd Coming (Rev19;
Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:9,12-13 [not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" but Christ's Second Coming
to the earth and the gathering of the elect of Israel [gathered "ONE by ONE"] into ONE PLACE upon the earth, to "worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"--see also Isa24:23, etc, etc)
Does this help clarify? (
)
