Did Jesus consider himself God?

UndoubtingThomas · Sep 29, 2016

Lol wow, so many apparent rules that aren't really rules at all. I guess that just goes to the value of catechism (zero)... At least in my day. Lol

SALVATION PRAYER (excerpt from online website)
Dear God in heaven, I come to you in the name of Jesus. I acknowledge to You that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins and the life that I have lived; I need your forgiveness.

So you're saying I could flip flop the words God and Jesus in the prayer above and it's ok? Just making sure I understand...

UndoubtingThomas · Sep 29, 2016

I just wanted to thank everyone that contributed to this discussion, I have learned so much from it and really do appreciate your kind and genuine responses. If anything I hope the things that were discussed brought to your mind some of the issues that complicate religion these days. I can only imagine how kids must feel trying to make sense of it all. If anything comes of it, it is my wish that God hear our prayers more often and that they are filled with real issues, personal and not just memorized passages of praise and thanks. The bible is open to interpretation for a reason. Once all is revealed, I expect none of us will have had it exactly right although I do expect the answers will look obvious after the fact.

There was on old wise tale I will leave you with....
A young woman is preparing her first thanksgiving dinner. As she gets everything ready for thanksgiving day, she very sternly reminds herself to let the turkey finish thawing in the sink overnight. She puts it in and places the dish rack over the top of the bird. Her husband walks into the kitchen and sees this. "Why are you doing that?" he asks.
"My mom always did that to help the turkey thaw" she told him.
The next day Mom calls to see how everything is going. "Fine, Ma. I have everything ready to go in the oven. I even remembered to put the rack over the turkey last night."
This seemed to confuse her mother a bit. "What are you talking about?" she asked.
"Oh, I remember you always put the dish rack over the turkey when it was thawing in the sink," she said.

There was a pause on the end of the line. "Yes, but honey, we had cats!"

Sometimes the reasons for tradition are not the reasons we think they are : ) God Bless

bluto · Sep 29, 2016

UndoubtingThomas said:

Now you read every word I said (at least I hope you did) and I never said or even implied the phrase, "flip flop." I gave to Biblical instances where Jesus Christ said to the disciples, "this is how to pray." And btw, this prayer is not set in stone that one has to pray or recite that prayer all the time. I mean prayer is simply talking to God. Then I gave the prayer of Stephen where he specfically prayer to Jesus Christ by name to receive his spirit and forgive those that stoned him.

Does it make sense to you that an orthodox Jew would pray to a human being to receive his spirit who is not God? I also gave you two scenairos of praying for salvation (like the model you provided) and praying after one is saved for sins one may have committed while being saved. Finally, I have know idea what you mean by rules to follow or so-called catechism unless your referring to the RCC? :eek;

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

UndoubtingThomas · Sep 29, 2016

bluto said:

Let me first address your first paragraph... I agree after you accept Jesus into your heart and request forgiveness and become a Christian you are free of sin. God does not remember your sins prior to that.

Now let me address your second paragraph. After becoming a Christian, no one that is born to God practices sin. In fact you should hate sin. Agreed and before I respond can you tell me your definition of sin?

With regards to your third paragraph... my Bible doesn't mention forgive our sins it mentions forgive our debts and our debtors but I know the normal change to the prayer is to insert sin for the word debt. I will have to check around to see if there's anywhere where Jesus says to pray to the Father for the Forgiveness of sins. In fact, in the entire Bible the only time the word sin is used to replace the word debt is the Lord's Prayer. So if Jesus didn't really say the word sin when he spoke The Lord's Prayer then I don't know that that argument holds up. As far as Steven goes they were committing murder which is a sin of the Ten Commandments.

In the New testament, Jesus says the two commandments are:
1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;
2. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Using these two commandments, how do I identify what is sin? For example, I know people that don't really care for themselves all that much and if they treated their neighbors like they treat themselves well they might be in jail at the end of it all.

Now I argue this just for those that don't believe The Ten Commandments are still required to be followed. And if you look at society today at least in parts of America, this is exactly what's happening... just because people love and believe in God and they are friendly to their neighbors that means they are not sinning. No need to repent no need to do anything. Now I know I take it a bit far in thinking that most people don't know what the Ten Commandments are but when you have religious organizations, and there are numerous ones out there, telling our young people that the old Covenant is no longer binding and that Covenant is where The Ten Commandments sit. And I tell you, when you tell this younger generation that something isn't required, you better believe they aren't going to pay any attention to it.

UndoubtingThomas · Sep 29, 2016

UndoubtingThomas said:

Let me first address your first paragraph... I agree after you accept Jesus into your heart and request forgiveness and become a Christian you are free of sin. God does not remember your sins prior to that.

Now let me address your second paragraph. After becoming a Christian, no one that is born to God practices sin. In fact you should hate sin. Agreed and before I respond can you tell me your definition of sin?

With regards to your third paragraph... my Bible doesn't mention forgive our sins it mentions forgive our debts and our debtors but I know the normal change to the prayer is to insert sin for the word debt. I will have to check around to see if there's anywhere where Jesus says to pray to the Father for the Forgiveness of sins. In fact, in the entire Bible the only time the word sin is used to replace the word debt is the Lord's Prayer. So if Jesus didn't really say the word sin when he spoke The Lord's Prayer then I don't know that that argument holds up. As far as Steven goes they were committing murder which is a sin of the Ten Commandments.

In the New testament, Jesus says the two commandments are:
1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;
2. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Using these two commandments, how do I identify what is sin? For example, I know people that don't really care for themselves all that much and if they treated their neighbors like they treat themselves well they might be in jail at the end of it all.

Now I argue this just for those that don't believe The Ten Commandments are still required to be followed. And if you look at society today at least in parts of America, this is exactly what's happening... just because people love and believe in God and they are friendly to their neighbors that means they are not sinning. No need to repent no need to do anything. Now I know I take it a bit far in thinking that most people don't know what the Ten Commandments are but when you have religious organizations, and there are numerous ones out there, telling our young people that the old Covenant is no longer binding and that Covenant is where The Ten Commandments sit. And I tell you, when you tell this younger generation that something isn't required, you better believe they aren't going to pay any attention to it.

Opps... I meant Testiment Old Testiment, not Covenant (put the stones down lol)

Adstar · Sep 29, 2016

UndoubtingThomas said:

Well that should be easy to answer.. Angels are created beings and are not God or Gods.. Therefore it is sin to worship angels.. I am surprised you have to ask this question...

Where?

PS: I have just been reading some of the comments and some seem to think you believe that the being in Revelation one who talks to John was an angel... I don't know if you think that but that being that talked to John in Revelation 1 was the LORD Jesus Christ..

UndoubtingThomas · Sep 30, 2016

Adstar said:

Yes, another had picked that up also. Seems like the point of view of the writer changes quite a bit and I missed one of the changes thanks for letting me know though I appreciate it makes a lot more sense now

garee · Sep 30, 2016

UndoubtingThomas said:

He was talking within Himself for our benefit .

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

garee · Sep 30, 2016

Well that should be easy to answer.. Angels are created beings and are not God or Gods.. Therefore it is sin to worship angels.. I am surprised you have to ask this question...

Yes we are not to worship created spirit life entities

If they are given the breath of spirit life they are gods. Sons of God are those who follow the Spirit of God. One third of the angels fell and are now considered demons as lying spirits after the god of this world, Satan.

He even called us gods in that way. According to the first commandment we are to have no gods before him which would include oneself.

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.Psa 82:6

garee · Sep 30, 2016

Things of men “seen” appose the things of God that “not seen”.

I think it is in how we use the two terms. Son of man and Son of God. When we use “Son of God” it is the description of Christ who has no form. It represents the anointing Holy Spirit of God. He as eternal God has no beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

While the term Son of man does denote a beginning as creation with the beginning of days and end of the temporal flesh . That the Holy Spirit used to demonstrate His Spirit work of pouring out His Spirit on flesh.

The Son of man, as the things of men did not except worship in respect to His temporal outward flesh . When approached on that matter he would say only God (not seen) is good.

We are informed in that way that the things of men(seen) offend the things of God(not seen) The faith principle.

Tintin · Sep 30, 2016

Uh. Christ definitely has a form. While on earth and now, He's both God and man. And Son of Man essentially means that Jesus is the promised Messiah.

garee · Sep 30, 2016

Tintin said:

I see that a little differently.

The Son of God, and not the Son of man essentially means that Jesus is the promised Messiah. He who has no form put it on to fulfill prophecy.

Son of man speaks of his temporal outward form needed for that outward demonstration of a spiritual work of pouring out His Spirit not seen.. We understand by faith (not seen)

Supernatural God who is “not a man” as us (a creation) has no beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2Co 5:16

I think a person would have to ask oneself? ; How long is henceforth know we him no more. And what does no more mean?

The Son of man speaks of that temporal life(33 years) in respect to a corrupted body that aged in a decaying process leading to death and destruction of a body of death that has no spirit life. In respect to that outward form Jesus received no worship..

Looking for a creature to place ones faith in, in respect to .Was the reason for the fall. God remains without a beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

oyster67 · Sep 30, 2016

UndoubtingThomas said:

You do have a good point about it not being as complicated as some will make it out to be. There is an elegant simplicity to the right relationship of a man to his brothers and to his Maker:

(Matt 22:37 [KJV])
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

(Matt 22:38 [KJV])
This is the first and great commandment.

(Matt 22:39 [KJV])
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

(Matt 22:40 [KJV])
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

eph610 · Sep 30, 2016

Adstar said:

If you both are talking about Rev 19.9-10:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he *said to me, “These are true words of God.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Then this was not Jesus nor was it an Angel. Jesus would have allowed John to worship him. An Angel would not let him worship him either[See Rev 22.8 below]. Some suggest it was one of the 24 Elders and I agree with this.

If you are Talking about Rev 22.8:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.

Then this was angel.

eph610 · Sep 30, 2016

garee said:

Please do interject oneness theology in this. It is not true and Jesus and the Father are both represented as separate in Heaven.

Tintin · Sep 30, 2016

garee said:

I see that a little differently.

The Son of God, and not the Son of man essentially means that Jesus is the promised Messiah. He who has no form put it on to fulfill prophecy.

Son of man speaks of his temporal outward form needed for that outward demonstration of a spiritual work of pouring out His Spirit not seen.. We understand by faith (not seen)

Supernatural God who is “not a man” as us (a creation) has no beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2Co 5:16

I think a person would have to ask oneself? ; How long is henceforth know we him no more. And what does no more mean?

The Son of man speaks of that temporal life(33 years) in respect to a corrupted body that aged in a decaying process leading to death and destruction of a body of death that has no spirit life. In respect to that outward form Jesus received no worship..

Looking for a creature to place ones faith in, in respect to .Was the reason for the fall. God remains without a beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

Have a little read of this. Son of Man means Jesus Christ is both divine (God) and human and that He's our Kinsman-Redeemer.

Why Is Jesus Called “Son of Man”? | Desiring God

mpaper345 · Sep 30, 2016

CS1 said:

Which the Bible says a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,and show the characteristics of the law,so they are not under the law,which means the law cannot touch them for prosecution for they are acting like Christ,or those in the flesh cannot please God,so we have to be led of the Spirit.

Every time a person sins,they are led of the flesh,not the Spirit,and when they get rid of that sin then they can be led of the Spirit again.

mpaper345 · Sep 30, 2016

Which the Bible says a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,and show the characteristics of the law,so they are not under the law,which means the law cannot touch them for prosecution for they are acting like Christ,or those in the flesh cannot please God,so we have to be led of the Spirit.

Every time a person sins,they are led of the flesh,not the Spirit,and when they get rid of that sin then they can be led of the Spirit again.

I wrote a Spirit led life will show the characteristics of the law,but I meant to say the characteristics of the Spirit.

williamjordan · Sep 30, 2016

UndoubtingThomas said:

For the very same reason, I would argue that Jesus did consider Himself as divine. I argue that Jesus did not speak as the OT prophets ("thus says the LORD"), but as One with great authority unlike any of the prophets or scribes ("I say unto you"), see Matthew 7.28-29.

I think one of the clearest examples of Christ's supreme authority can be seen in the Sermon on the Mount. For years I struggled with this text (Matthew 5) as I battled with the Law vs. Grace issue. And as a Sabbatarian, for the longest time I thought the point of the Sermon was to bring light to the Law. That is, Christ was giving the true meaning of Moses and contrasting that with the distortions of Moses by the Pharisees. But it took me years to finally discover that through His "You have heard it said... But I say unto you" statements, what Christ was doing here was expressing His authority over the Law. He wasn't merely bringing into full focus the true meaning, but seems to be changing the Law, and in fact transcending (or "raising the bar" so-to-speak) the Law. What makes this glaringly obvious is what Christ says in Matthew 5.38-42,

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.”

If what Christ was doing here was bringing light to the Law, rather than transcending it, then how in the world would anyone ever take “an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth” to really mean, “turn the other cheek”? Thus, it seems apparent to me that this is a display of Christ's authority, an authority over the Law that no OT prophet would ever dare declare.

That being said, I think it's important to understand that the NT makes it clear that He who "laid the foundations of the earth who" (Hebrews 1.10 c.f. John 1.3) was "born under the law" (Galatians 4.4), being "made lower than the angels for a little while" (Hebrews 2.9).

Jesus was born under the law, but He is also the perfection of that Law -- perfection living in flesh, God in man. The fact that Jesus was "born under the law" would mean that He has not always been under that law, specifically, prior to His incarnation.

williamjordan · Sep 30, 2016

Or rather, I should have said: The fact that Jesus was "born under the law" carries with it connotations that He has not always been subject to the law, specifically, prior to His incarnation.

Did Jesus consider himself God?

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