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Ah then no I am not a universalist.
As for clarification. I believe God will send the wicked to the Lake of Fire and will save the righteous to live forever. This is what I mean by God does not wipe out mankind, but rather, saves mankind. For if God were to wipe out mankind all would perish, but God is long suffering towards us that no man might perish.
As for clarification. I believe God will send the wicked to the Lake of Fire and will save the righteous to live forever. This is what I mean by God does not wipe out mankind, but rather, saves mankind. For if God were to wipe out mankind all would perish, but God is long suffering towards us that no man might perish.
Hebrews 11:13-16
[SUP]13 [/SUP]All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
It is interesting though, that Jesus said, "I was watching as Satan fell" after the return of the seventy. I agree that the final and complete defeat of Satan would have been in the resurrection of Jesus Christ (however, we can still give power to Satan, over our souls, by denying Jesus). Anyway, He said this in past tense (at least according to the NASB) but He said it before He was crucified.
I have wondered while reading several places in the bible if the tense is there or if they just assume. For example, some of Daniel says "will" where I think it should be in the past tense. I have read that the tense isn't always there, but I don't speak Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek so I am left relying on the translators. I have tried to use Strong's but have found that it doesn't help me much. I think that there a lot of people that "use" Strong's to get the bible to say what they want it to say.
L
What has to be considered it how many ages are there?
Matt 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Matt 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
So what age are we in ? - the NT tells the us we are in "age to come" and this is established by what Paul stated to the Corinthians:
1 Cor 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
Paul is emphatically saying the "culmination of the ages has come" upon them.
Now lets consider Peter:
(2 Pet 3:13 KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(2 Pet 3:10 KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Now it's commonly thought that Peter is speaking of a destruction of the physical earth and heavens - but here he is speaking symbolically of the 70AD destruction or Jerusalem and the old covenant system with it priesthood power.
How does Peter think of and understand the "element" and the "heavens and earth"?
(2 Pet 3:12 KJV) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements stoicheion shall melt with fervent heat?
(2 Pet 3:13 KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Peter describes the heavens being on fire and the elements shall melt - is he speaking of the actual heavens and elements of the earth?
What is interesting to note is his use of the world elements - in the Greek the word is stoicheion
We find ii is used in only seven verses - twice in Peter's letter.
Col 2:8 KJV Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, and not after
Christ.
Col 2:20 KJV Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Gal 4:3 KJV Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements (stoicheion) of the world:
Gal 4:9 KJV But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements (stoicheion) whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Heb 5:12 KJV For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles (stoicheion) of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
As can be seen from the above the usages of stoicheion (elements) all have to do with religious principles/teachings or philosophy and not atoms or elements of the physical world or universe.
It is vital to have a correct understanding of the terms "heavens and earth" or the theology we believe will be all over the place and essentially wrong.
There are a number of NT statement were the term heaven and earth appear including:
(Mat 5:18 KJV) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(Mat 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(Mat 24:35 KJV) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(2 Pet 3:13 KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
So are these things the literal heaven(s) and the planet earth?
How did the Jews understand the heavens and earth?
(Exo 25:8 KJV) let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
(Exo 25:9 KJV) According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
The patten where "I may dwell among them" is gone and replaced with the temple of believers:
(1 Pet 2:5 KJV) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(Heb 8:4 KJV) For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
(Heb 8:5 KJV) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.
(Heb 9:10 KJV) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
(Heb 9:11 KJV) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.
(Heb 12:22 KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,[/quote]
We can see from some of the above that the Jews understood the heavens and earth to be the temple where God dwelt among them prior to Jesus arriving on the scene.
How can we really be sure this is how they understood it in that way?
Here is what Josephus the 1st Jewish historian who had studied with the various sects of Jesus time wrote:
That's an interesting statement - "he denoted the land and the sea," - two parts of the tabernacle called "land and sea" - which could easily substitute earth for land in Josephus's statement and it would accord with this:
(Rev 21:1 KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Matt 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Matt 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
So what age are we in ? - the NT tells the us we are in "age to come" and this is established by what Paul stated to the Corinthians:
1 Cor 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
Paul is emphatically saying the "culmination of the ages has come" upon them.
Now lets consider Peter:
(2 Pet 3:13 KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(2 Pet 3:10 KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Now it's commonly thought that Peter is speaking of a destruction of the physical earth and heavens - but here he is speaking symbolically of the 70AD destruction or Jerusalem and the old covenant system with it priesthood power.
How does Peter think of and understand the "element" and the "heavens and earth"?
(2 Pet 3:12 KJV) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements stoicheion shall melt with fervent heat?
(2 Pet 3:13 KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Peter describes the heavens being on fire and the elements shall melt - is he speaking of the actual heavens and elements of the earth?
What is interesting to note is his use of the world elements - in the Greek the word is stoicheion
We find ii is used in only seven verses - twice in Peter's letter.
Col 2:8 KJV Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, and not after
Christ.
Col 2:20 KJV Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Gal 4:3 KJV Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements (stoicheion) of the world:
Gal 4:9 KJV But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements (stoicheion) whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Heb 5:12 KJV For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles (stoicheion) of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
As can be seen from the above the usages of stoicheion (elements) all have to do with religious principles/teachings or philosophy and not atoms or elements of the physical world or universe.
It is vital to have a correct understanding of the terms "heavens and earth" or the theology we believe will be all over the place and essentially wrong.
There are a number of NT statement were the term heaven and earth appear including:
(Mat 5:18 KJV) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(Mat 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(Mat 24:35 KJV) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(2 Pet 3:13 KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
So are these things the literal heaven(s) and the planet earth?
How did the Jews understand the heavens and earth?
(Exo 25:8 KJV) let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
(Exo 25:9 KJV) According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
The patten where "I may dwell among them" is gone and replaced with the temple of believers:
(1 Pet 2:5 KJV) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(Heb 8:4 KJV) For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
(Heb 8:5 KJV) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.
(Heb 9:10 KJV) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
(Heb 9:11 KJV) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.
(Heb 12:22 KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,[/quote]
We can see from some of the above that the Jews understood the heavens and earth to be the temple where God dwelt among them prior to Jesus arriving on the scene.
How can we really be sure this is how they understood it in that way?
Here is what Josephus the 1st Jewish historian who had studied with the various sects of Jesus time wrote:
That's an interesting statement - "he denoted the land and the sea," - two parts of the tabernacle called "land and sea" - which could easily substitute earth for land in Josephus's statement and it would accord with this:
(Rev 21:1 KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
L
Strong's will only give you the base definition - what you need is to get the scripture for all program which is free which has an interlinear with the Greek and the tense - Interlinear scripture analyzer - screen shot below.
htt......p://www.scripture4all.org/
For further tensing and parsing I copy the actual Greek from the above and plonk it into this:
htt.......p://lexicon.katabiblon.com/
I placed the ....... in there as the links are looking weird when viewed in the preview mode.
It wont make you a Greek expert.
htt......p://www.scripture4all.org/
For further tensing and parsing I copy the actual Greek from the above and plonk it into this:
htt.......p://lexicon.katabiblon.com/
I placed the ....... in there as the links are looking weird when viewed in the preview mode.
It wont make you a Greek expert.
It is funny, but I came to the same conclusion, if I understand you correctly, in a totally different way. I believe the days of creation, while literal, represent the expanse of time that we are here on earth. In day two God separated the water vertically and placed waters above waters. I believe this represents the Israelites being placed above the Gentiles, as God's chosen people (the old heaven and earth). When Jesus was crucified and resurrected he destroyed the old "system" and created the new system, which was finalized with the destruction of the temple (I believe that this probably allowed the fullness of the Gentiles to come in - but I am not sure about that) so that the animal sacrifices could not be made anymore.
If you notice the first set of three days supports the second set of three days.
1st Day.......Light-----------------------------------------4th Day.........................Sun, Moon, Stars
2nd Day......Vertical Division of Waters/Heaven--------5th Day.........................Birds, Sea Creatures
3rd Day......Division of Waters/Land&Sea---------------6th Day.........................Animals and Man
Day 1 provides light, but the Sun, Moon, and Stars are a source of Light in Day 4
Day 2 provides sky and water* for the birds and fish of Day 5
Day 3 makes land for the animals and man of Day 6
*I realize that the water was there the whole time.
L
I don't actually see the Genesis account as describing the creation of a "heaven and earth" in the symbolic sense although there are some that take it that far.
We can see from the old testament how this "heaven and earth creation" is spoken of:
(Isa 51:16 KJV) And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
This is speaking of the covenant creation with Moses and the people.
We can see from the old testament how this "heaven and earth creation" is spoken of:
(Isa 51:16 KJV) And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
This is speaking of the covenant creation with Moses and the people.
L
There is no war that kills a third of the planet - only a third of the people that lived in 1st century AD Judea:
(Rev 9:14 KJV) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
(Rev 9:15 KJV) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Revelation is chocked full of symbol imagery but they do represent an underlying substrata.
The scene for this is Judea.
You don't need modern technology to have a "mark" the Nazi's made the European Jews wear a label to identify them - not that I think that has anything to do with the book of revelation.
(Rev 9:14 KJV) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
(Rev 9:15 KJV) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Revelation is chocked full of symbol imagery but they do represent an underlying substrata.
The scene for this is Judea.
You don't need modern technology to have a "mark" the Nazi's made the European Jews wear a label to identify them - not that I think that has anything to do with the book of revelation.
How convenient that you did not continue reading Revelation chapter nine. lets have a look:
Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Revelation 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Yep! It says a TWO BILLION man army! Which is bad for your assertion becuse you are on record as stating...
L
No I'm not you are pasting assumptions that never originated from my keyboard.
The figure is prophetic hyperbole and figurative and showing that the Jews were outnumbered - John is drawing on Ezekiel:
A third of your people will die of the plague or perish by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls; and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword..
All these came to pass in 70AD.
The figure is prophetic hyperbole and figurative and showing that the Jews were outnumbered - John is drawing on Ezekiel:
A third of your people will die of the plague or perish by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls; and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword..
All these came to pass in 70AD.
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