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Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark."
Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. are indeed older; but whether they are more accurate is HIGHLY DEBATABLE! Both of these manuscripts come from Alexandria, where allegorical interpretation of Scripture was practiced. The Syriac, Coptic, and Byzantine manuscripts all include Mark 16:9-20. While these manuscripts are indeed more recent; they come from places where Scripture was taken as literal and treated with respect. You probably regard the Alexandrian ECF as either heretical or incipid; so why give preference to Alexandrian manuscripts of any age. The place has a well deserved reputation for corrupting God's Word. IMO both Wescott/Hort, and Nestle texts are inferior to either the Textus Receptus or the Majority Text.
Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. are indeed older; but whether they are more accurate is HIGHLY DEBATABLE! Both of these manuscripts come from Alexandria, where allegorical interpretation of Scripture was practiced. The Syriac, Coptic, and Byzantine manuscripts all include Mark 16:9-20. While these manuscripts are indeed more recent; they come from places where Scripture was taken as literal and treated with respect. You probably regard the Alexandrian ECF as either heretical or incipid; so why give preference to Alexandrian manuscripts of any age. The place has a well deserved reputation for corrupting God's Word. IMO both Wescott/Hort, and Nestle texts are inferior to either the Textus Receptus or the Majority Text.
Since you believe that that which is perfect [complete, mature] is scripture - Can you explain what it means to see scripture "face to face"?
Since you are not receiving "word of knowledge" from God any longer because it has vanished - why should I believe what you are saying?
Do you see everything clearly now or do you still see darkly? Do you know even as you are known?
DC - these are just rhetorical questions . . .
no offense meant.
Love you in Christ! PB
Since you are not receiving "word of knowledge" from God any longer because it has vanished - why should I believe what you are saying?
Do you see everything clearly now or do you still see darkly? Do you know even as you are known?
DC - these are just rhetorical questions . . .
no offense meant. Love you in Christ! PB
From my understanding and from how I look at it is when we are born again we are filled with the holy spirit therefore we all change inwardly. ALL meaning ALL. << Saved Child.
The gift would be to have the holy spirit inside of us - and as the Lord promised we have the gift of eternal life.
I believe now that we have the gift the Lord blesses us all with the ability to preach His testimony to those who need it.
about 10 years ago I read a testimony from Young girl in Central Java. He mam is Chinese, and Her Dad is Javanese. Her dad family doesn't like her mom, also her mom has mental illness. She was very sad. She go to school at Jogyakarta, it is about 75 mile from Semarang where her mom lived. She learn Shamanism to cure her mom. But it doesn't work and even worse.
One day her friend bring her a gospel song CD, she listen and she felt peace. After conversation with her friend she agree to go to bible camp. There she learn about Jesus and she pray for speak in tongue.
When she did pray in tongue, her friend stop her and told her that her tongue is not from the Lord. She was offended.
the boarding place where she lived, she pray, suddenly, she speak in tongue. She is half Chinese but she don't speak Chinese at all. Most Javanese Chinese did not speak Chinese, in 1965 Indonesian close Chinese speaking school. But now they have little freedom.
The room next to her was a Chinese from Sumatra, most of them speak Chinese.
While she pray in tongue, a girl next to her room come with tears. Her neighbor said she speak Chinese in tree dialect that she know. She pray the same pray 3 time in 3 different dialect but it is the same prayer. Surprisingly, she mention about the sin the neighbor commit.
Her neighbor crying, and want to accept Jesus.
As a new Christian, she doesn't know what to do. She ask if he neighbor want to go to her pastor. She agree but she have appointment with her boy friend, to pick her up, but because of her longing to lean about Jesus she ignore her boy friend.
A poor people in indonesia doesn't have phone.
Surprisingly, her non Christian boy friend meet them in Pastor house.
She said her non christian boy friend have a visions. His vision said he have to go to the pastor house address.
He is non believer but he just follow the instruction because he never has a visions before so he so scare and just follow it.
One day her friend bring her a gospel song CD, she listen and she felt peace. After conversation with her friend she agree to go to bible camp. There she learn about Jesus and she pray for speak in tongue.
When she did pray in tongue, her friend stop her and told her that her tongue is not from the Lord. She was offended.
the boarding place where she lived, she pray, suddenly, she speak in tongue. She is half Chinese but she don't speak Chinese at all. Most Javanese Chinese did not speak Chinese, in 1965 Indonesian close Chinese speaking school. But now they have little freedom.
The room next to her was a Chinese from Sumatra, most of them speak Chinese.
While she pray in tongue, a girl next to her room come with tears. Her neighbor said she speak Chinese in tree dialect that she know. She pray the same pray 3 time in 3 different dialect but it is the same prayer. Surprisingly, she mention about the sin the neighbor commit.
Her neighbor crying, and want to accept Jesus.
As a new Christian, she doesn't know what to do. She ask if he neighbor want to go to her pastor. She agree but she have appointment with her boy friend, to pick her up, but because of her longing to lean about Jesus she ignore her boy friend.
A poor people in indonesia doesn't have phone.
Surprisingly, her non Christian boy friend meet them in Pastor house.
She said her non christian boy friend have a visions. His vision said he have to go to the pastor house address.
He is non believer but he just follow the instruction because he never has a visions before so he so scare and just follow it.
When you love someone, and you express it in a card, a song, a shout for joy, you know the emotion you are expressing, this is tongues. Now the pharisees always were looking for legal justification of things, wanting to put things in a box, but God does not like boxes. He called us to love people, to look at the fruit in someones life. Tongues are mainly for the edification of the individual in worship
"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." 1 Cor 14:18
"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues" 1 Cor 14:39
Now this is a simple outflow of the Holy Spirit in someones heart. It is clearly in the early church, and is part of the love relationship with the Lord. If you condemn it as non-biblical you do not read you bible, and secondly you have not freed you heart where your whole soul offers praise to the Living God who gave his Life for you.
So be careful not to condemn a work of God in someones heart, but encourage those who desire to worship and praise his name.
Now though I do not know the exact words of a tongue, I know how my spirit rises as it does when I think of all the glorious things the Lord is worthy of. I wonder therefore whether you even know this kind of praise, and are not just someone who is jealous of this level of emotional expression. So be careful your envy does not fall into sin, if it has not already done so,
Yours in the Living God, Jesus Christ our Lord and King, Amen
"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." 1 Cor 14:18
"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues" 1 Cor 14:39
Now this is a simple outflow of the Holy Spirit in someones heart. It is clearly in the early church, and is part of the love relationship with the Lord. If you condemn it as non-biblical you do not read you bible, and secondly you have not freed you heart where your whole soul offers praise to the Living God who gave his Life for you.
So be careful not to condemn a work of God in someones heart, but encourage those who desire to worship and praise his name.
Now though I do not know the exact words of a tongue, I know how my spirit rises as it does when I think of all the glorious things the Lord is worthy of. I wonder therefore whether you even know this kind of praise, and are not just someone who is jealous of this level of emotional expression. So be careful your envy does not fall into sin, if it has not already done so,
Yours in the Living God, Jesus Christ our Lord and King, Amen
To all those critics, those who sit on judgement of your fellow believers, look to your own hearts, and do not fall into sin.
The Lord gives gifts as He sees fit, opens up desperate people in dire need, and touches them with the embrace of a Father. Now you with your hardened heart, want order, structure, a model army, marching to a tune with defined rules and no one stepping out of line. But that is not the Kingdom of the living God, or the prison into which he wishes his children to walk.
So repent before it becomes your own spiritual ruin, and judgement falls on you and your churches...
The Lord gives gifts as He sees fit, opens up desperate people in dire need, and touches them with the embrace of a Father. Now you with your hardened heart, want order, structure, a model army, marching to a tune with defined rules and no one stepping out of line. But that is not the Kingdom of the living God, or the prison into which he wishes his children to walk.
So repent before it becomes your own spiritual ruin, and judgement falls on you and your churches...
If you do not know what you are saying then you are not is accord with what Paul has prescribed in the scriptures. I cannot lend any credence no matter how tingly you feel when your experience differs from scripture. Paul no doubt spoke more languages than many of those to whom he preached. Paul knew Hebrew, classic Greek, most likely Latin and Aramaic Greek.
Why is it those who play the love card really never understand what it is to love someone in the Lord?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Why is it those who play the love card really never understand what it is to love someone in the Lord?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
When you come down off your high horse take a moment to check what is was you received when you got saved.
Were you convicted that you were a sinner and justly deserved to be condemned for all of eternity? Did you receive conviction of the righteousness of Christ? The only perfect righteousness that could satisfy the demands of a righteous and holy God. Were you convicted that sinners are judged worthy of eternal condemnation and they cannot ever fully pay for their own sin?
Was it made clear in your heart that only Gods grace could provide forgiveness of your sin and only Gods grace could give you the gift of eternal life? A gift you could never deserve or never obtain by your own merits? Or did you get the Jesus loves you and all will be good message?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Were you convicted that you were a sinner and justly deserved to be condemned for all of eternity? Did you receive conviction of the righteousness of Christ? The only perfect righteousness that could satisfy the demands of a righteous and holy God. Were you convicted that sinners are judged worthy of eternal condemnation and they cannot ever fully pay for their own sin?
Was it made clear in your heart that only Gods grace could provide forgiveness of your sin and only Gods grace could give you the gift of eternal life? A gift you could never deserve or never obtain by your own merits? Or did you get the Jesus loves you and all will be good message?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Tongues by its nature is the speakers spirit talking to the Lord. Your problem is simple, you do not understand spiritual relationships.
What I asked you was simple, do you know how to worship from your heart, to cry, to weep before the Lord?
If you did you would not have answered like you have. No I cannot tell you what it is like, I cannot tell you what it is like to "fall in love" with someone, but it is real.
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
1 Cor 14:2-5
Now listen to the testimony of people who exercise this gift, who talk about the uplifting of their souls and to those who can interpret the words, which are mainly praise and glory to God.
You problem is you want to define yourself closely without this emotional exhuberance, and condemn those who follow the Spirit of God. So be careful or you will be talking against the very work of the Lord and his expression of love to his people.
E
this makes utterly no sense whatsoever.
It would be like me going to my wife who can understand spanish, and speaking in spanish, when she understand, but I have utterly no idea of what I am saying. is this going to edify me? How can I be edified by my words of love to her when I have no idea if I am saying I love you, or if I am cussing her out because she did something to me.
to those of us who know what a relationship is like. we are edified when we praise the ones we love in our own language, when we make requests of them and they respond in love back to us.
It would be like me going to my wife who can understand spanish, and speaking in spanish, when she understand, but I have utterly no idea of what I am saying. is this going to edify me? How can I be edified by my words of love to her when I have no idea if I am saying I love you, or if I am cussing her out because she did something to me.
to those of us who know what a relationship is like. we are edified when we praise the ones we love in our own language, when we make requests of them and they respond in love back to us.
i agree HIGHLY DEBATEABLE! as verses 9-20 appear to be a summary of other NT Gospels and the book of Acts. Without looking at whether or not those verses are included in the original manuscripts........
If we examine verse 18 alone it is out of context in the sense it says "They shall take up serpents" in reference to men that are liars and sons of the devil. This is not about the literal creature that crawls on the ground,(with the exception of Paul on the island of Malta) the KJV did a horrible job translating names as well.
back to verse 18....... tread on them as stated in Luke 10:19 "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
also when we look at Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
(vipers-snakes of many colors, a.k.a. liars and murderers,sons and daughters of the devil ) compare with>>>
Matthew 12:34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
That is who we tread upon and overcome brother Marc liars and murderers who are like snakes of many colors (brood of vipers) and always shedding their skin, sons and daughters of the devil.
More on this subject later and somewhere else perhaps?.......My apologies for the potential derail here but i felt necessary to address this.
If we examine verse 18 alone it is out of context in the sense it says "They shall take up serpents" in reference to men that are liars and sons of the devil. This is not about the literal creature that crawls on the ground,(with the exception of Paul on the island of Malta) the KJV did a horrible job translating names as well.
back to verse 18....... tread on them as stated in Luke 10:19 "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
also when we look at Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
(vipers-snakes of many colors, a.k.a. liars and murderers,sons and daughters of the devil ) compare with>>>
Matthew 12:34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
That is who we tread upon and overcome brother Marc liars and murderers who are like snakes of many colors (brood of vipers) and always shedding their skin, sons and daughters of the devil.
More on this subject later and somewhere else perhaps?.......My apologies for the potential derail here but i felt necessary to address this.
Since you believe that that which is perfect [complete, mature] is scripture - Can you explain what it means to see scripture "face to face"?
Since you are not receiving "word of knowledge" from God any longer because it has vanished - why should I believe what you are saying?
Do you see everything clearly now or do you still see darkly? Do you know even as you are known?
DC - these are just rhetorical questions . . . no offense meant.
Love you in Christ! PB
Since you are not receiving "word of knowledge" from God any longer because it has vanished - why should I believe what you are saying?
Do you see everything clearly now or do you still see darkly? Do you know even as you are known?
DC - these are just rhetorical questions . . .
no offense meant. Love you in Christ! PB
Face to face.....I can think of a couple applications......Such as, we have the completed word of God and it is compared to a mirror as the perfect law of liberty in JAMES and when one digs into the word and hears the word it is in essence seeing and hearing directly form God/Jesus himself....The SPIRIT bears witness with our Spirit....When I read a email or letter from someone I know personally I can see their face and hear the words which are coming out of their mouth.....
LOVE NEVER FAILS, BUT<---------THE FOLLOWING will happen
Prophecies---shall fail-->Fail=kataergeo-->to be rendered useless, abolish, cease, to become of no effect, to put away, vanish away.....With the completion of the word of God and the book of Revelation we have ALL we need to know and understand what is happening, going to happen and there is no need for any new prophetic utterences.....God has revealed what needed to be revealed........
Tongues---They shall CEASE--->cease=pauo-->to stop, to quit, COME TO AN END, restrain desist......First of all, tongues means LANGUAGES and when the Apostle spoke in his own language some 15-17 different NATIONALITIES heard in their own LANGUAGE...it was not some MUMBO JUMBO.....At the time this takes place the NT had not yet been written....the HELLENIZATION of the (KNOWN WORLD) by Alexander the GREAT had spread the KOINE GREEK and allowed for a MEDIAN to be used for the spread of the word......By the time the word of God is written (NT) the 1st century had almost come to a close and the Jerusalem Church had been scattered going every where preaching the word and PAUL had turned the WESTERN WORLD on it's head and the bible was now given and written and being spread by witness, apostle, testimony and was sweeping the world....
Knowledge---shall vanish away-->Vanish=kataergeo-->to be rendered useless, abolish, cease, to become of no effect, to put away, vanish away.....This is speaking of the supernaturally revealed knowledge and understanding given by direct revelation to Paul as well as others so as to preach and teach the coming Kingdom and what that all entails.....Again when the WORD of GOD is completed there is no need for this as we now have the Greek New Testament and the Hebrew OT....of the which BOTH would be and were translated into other Languages, God gave witnesses to the truth from some 15-17 different nationalities and the word was being spread throughout the known world.....
The word of KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING now comes from the WRITTEN WORD which CANNOT be changed as the two languages it was written in primarily are considered dead languages......the meanings of the words cannot change or evolve....faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the WORD of GOD....HOLY MEN OF GOD WROTE and WE HAVE the completed word of GOD..THAT which is in part is kataergeo and pauo because we have the COMPLETED word of GOD and a MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHESY.
Before the written word of GOD, and the COMPLETE picture it reveals, ALL looked through the smoked glass and could not see clearly...NOW WE CAN ALL see clearly because we have the completed WORD and it REVEALS all that we need to know and or can know....
JESUS is the WORD which came to be flesh and we BEHELD HIS GLORY and NOW can SEE GOD FACE TO FACE in HIS WRITTEN WORD, WE CAN MEET GOD on HIS TERMS because the FATHER has been revealed dia HIS WORD...IE THE WORD which came to be flesh and dwelt AMONG US as IMMANUEL.
Paul said...WE know in part, we prophesy in PART, but when that which is COMPLETE IS COME...the KNOWING and PROPHESYING in PART will be DONE AWAY WITH, why? BECAUSE we have the WHOLE, THE WORD OF GOD COMPLETE, THE BIBLE, THE COMPLETE revealed GOD of HEAVEN in HIS WORD.
He compares this all to being a child, thinking as a child, having the understanding of a child, but then becomes a MAN.....HE MATURED...WHAT CAUSES MATURITY in a believers life.....GROWTH....being transformed, molded and changed by the MEAT of the WORD....MEAT (THE DEEP THINGS REVELED) belongs to those who are MATURE.....
and RIGHT NOW...not next week, not in 2000 years, but now ABIDETH FAITH, HOPE and LOVE.....remember LOVE will never FAIL, BUT PROPHECIES, TONGUES and the IMPARTATION of REVEALED KNOWLEDGE (REVELATION) will cease, fail and vanish away when that which is COMPLETE is come.........
Abideth---->meno-->TO STAY, to continue, to endure, to be present, to remain, to tarry
The context is clear.....FAITH, HOPE and LOVE will MENO
Prophecies, Tongues and IMPARTED KNOWLEDGE by REVELATION will CEASE, FAIL and VANISH AWAY
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E
and we all come before God with empty hands...we have absolutely nothing to offer Him
only our hearts...and some of you here have stone hard and very cold hearts
I would grieve for you, but I shake my head...who will you turn to when your Bible is ripped out of your hand
and the One you profess to love has left you because you mocked what you don't understand?
your Bible, no matter how well you think you know it, is a mystery in your hands and it will not buy you a ticket to heaven
only our hearts...and some of you here have stone hard and very cold hearts
I would grieve for you, but I shake my head...who will you turn to when your Bible is ripped out of your hand
and the One you profess to love has left you because you mocked what you don't understand?
your Bible, no matter how well you think you know it, is a mystery in your hands and it will not buy you a ticket to heaven
Luke 6:42
How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.
How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.