Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Grandpa]

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, salvation is not earned, it is not what we are doing, it is Christ who did it. It's nothing about we do, it's done by Christ. The Saviour Christ is come to seek and save that which was lost. Christ came to save those who will believe on him. He was not come to give faith. As usual Ephesian 2;8-10, although you already included in your quote vv 8-9 yet still, they are no bearing in support for election to salvation. This seems to begin to your fallacious reasoning. The very first verse had nothing to do with election. The scripture is clear how can one be saved. Even the word ordain as in v. 13 is moot because the Greek has worded it differently from the Greek eklektos.

Without me you can do nothing.

And this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He will He hardens.


Ephesians 2:8 explains Election to Salvation to you but you can't understand. Because you don't want to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course salvation is from God. But we are saved through faith, NOT election. They are not synonymous.

What does "and that not of yourselves" mean to you?

It means plainly what it says. No one can save themselves.

It means that Grace and Faith are not from US. They are from God.

No, it doesn't include "faith" being from God. Not at all. Let's look at the genders here.

In Eph 2:8, "faith" is a feminine gender, while "saved" is masculine gender. Salvation is from God, and that fits the masculine gender, while faith is feminine.

Salvation, from beginning to end is NOT OF OURSELVES.

NO ONE thinks that it is. Why do you beating a dead horse, a VERY dead horse? Your argument is immaterial since no one here believes that.

The problem is that YOU and your ilk believe that non calvinists DO believe that. But we don't. At least, I don't.

What you aren't willing to accept is that God created mankind with a conscience with which to make choices. And when the gospel message is presented, the hearers are presented with a choice. To either believe it or not. It's that simple, but your calvinistic mind seems unable to grasp that fact.

Since Titus 2:11 shows that the "grace of God has appeared to "all men" or EVERYONE, we know that the gospel is for EVERYONE.

This alone refutes calvinistic ideas.

There is no way to honestly interpret Ephesians 2:8-10 as saying WE provide the Faith and God rewards that Faith with Salvation.

Then you've had to cut Rom 10:10 out of your Bible, because this verse says that "man believes from his heart".

There are NO verses that say that our faith comes from God. Calvinists believe what is NOT taught in the Bible.

It is DISHONEST to say that and WISHFUL THINKING being pushed onto the Scriptures.

Could you please show me where I've made any mention of this "wishful thinking" that you speak of?

Because that charge is idiocy. I reject any idea of "wishful thinking" in the BIble. The Greek word translated "hope" never means wishful thinking, which is the way we in the 21st Century use "hope". The Greek word means "a confident expectation", which is a strong word for faith.

Sheesh. I'm trying to have a discussion with someone who doesn't even know or understand my position.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Without me you can do nothing.

And this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

The word "this" is a reference to salvation, not faith, as you have to presume.

Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He will He hardens.

Maybe you aren't aware of what the Bible says about who God will have mercy on.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Another verse that refutes calvinistic notions! This is really a conditional format. The "let" can be an "if" which clearly shows the conditions.

So, IF the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts,

and IF they turn to the Lord,

THEN "he will have mercy on them, for He will freely pardon".

There's grace; He freely pardons those who forsake their ways and turn to the Lord.

But you abuse Rom 9 with your insinuation that God's mercy is given unconditionally.

No, God's mercy is to those who have turned to the Lord.


Ephesians 2:8 explains Election to Salvation to you but you can't understand. Because you don't want to.[/QUOTE]

 

[John146]

What does "and that not of yourselves" mean to you?

Salvation was not provided by man but by God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[John146]

If by "the elect" you mean believers, then according to Eph 1:4, yes, it speaks of believers, who are elected for service.

If, however, you mean anyone who has been chosen/elected, not necessarily. In John 6:70 Jesus told the 12 that He chose/elected them, and one of them was a devil, meaning Judas, who never believed. But was chosen to be the betrayer.

Election is to service. All believers have been chosen for service, so there is no such thing as "full time Christian service" vs pew warmers.

They will never answer how Christ was God's elect, or how there are elect angels. Election is always to service not salvation.

 

[fredoheaven]

You were in contradiction and cant see it.

And you are not seeing the scriptural truths and is unable to understand. The scripture of truth is always right against your Calvinistic position.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They will never answer how Christ was God's elect, or how there are elect angels. Election is always to service not salvation.

Amen!

 

[John146]

Amen!

And why would a man risk his life, subject his family to deadly diseases and even death to preach the gospel in a foreign nation if God has already elected those who will be saved? "Because God said to..." "His ways are higher than ours..."

 

[fredoheaven]

Without me you can do nothing.

And this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He will He hardens.


Ephesians 2:8 explains Election to Salvation to you but you can't understand. Because you don't want to.

Who says we don't need Christ? Salvation is about Christ did. Who says, salvation is not a gift? Salvation is offered free. Now you are about not seeing the truth in Ephesian 2:8 , your quote of it has nothing to do with election to salvation not even the word elect/election is present. As said, even in verse 10 where it seems the phrase " before ordained" is different from what you are trying to assume it is. You are just circling around my friend.

 

[brightfame52]

Ridiculous.

Joshua
24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
24:16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
24:17 For the LORD our God, he [it is] that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:
24:18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: [therefore] will we also serve the LORD; for he [is] our God.

Nothing has changed

 

[brightfame52]

And you are not seeing the scriptural truths and is unable to understand. The scripture of truth is always right against your Calvinistic position.

Doesnt change that you in contradiction and cant see it.

 

[fredoheaven]

Doesnt change that you in contradiction and cant see it.

This would fall to a circular reasoning as you are unable to defend yours with solid scriptural basis. That may have been the diffrence. No there is no contradiction with what Christ said to believe in Him and Paul's or John the Beloved. I have provided scripture to back up what I am saying, you haven't. Thanks

 

[brightfame52]

This would fall to a circular reasoning as you are unable to defend yours with solid scriptural basis. That may have been the diffrence. No there is no contradiction with what Christ said to believe in Him and Paul's or John the Beloved. I have provided scripture to back up what I am saying, you haven't. Thanks

You are a conditionalist, work salvation !

 

[FreeGrace2]

fredoheaven said:
This would fall to a circular reasoning as you are unable to defend yours with solid scriptural basis. That may have been the diffrence. No there is no contradiction with what Christ said to believe in Him and Paul's or John the Beloved. I have provided scripture to back up what I am saying, you haven't. Thanks

You are a conditionalist, work salvation !

Your response really illuminates just how bereft of support from Scripture you have. You have name calling, while fredoheaven has solid biblical evidence for what he believes.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

work salvation !

You keep insisting that faith is works. However, Scripture is very clear that faith is not works

Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


.

 

[brightfame52]

You keep insisting that faith is works. However, Scripture is very clear that faith is not works

Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


.

If you condition salvation on your faith, its works salvation. Anything set as a condition done by you, in order for God to save you is works, period !

 

[John146]

If you condition salvation on your faith, its works salvation. Anything set as a condition done by you, in order for God to save you is works, period !

Works according to scripture is not how you define it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

brightfame52 said:
work salvation !

You keep insisting that faith is works. However, Scripture is very clear that faith is not works

Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness..

He also apparently isn't aware of Eph 2:8,9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Why do you think the Bible says.....the end will not come until all the world has been made aware of God's word.

Also....the Bible says ....some things are reserved for our Father's knowledge only.
Shouldn't we believe that God is capable and will handle such question you ask?

Please post the scripture for us to study so we can see your point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you condition salvation on your faith, its works salvation.

The Bible refutes your opinion. Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2;8,9

Anything set as a condition done by you, in order for God to save you is works, period !

It is God's plan to save those who believe. Your argument is with God Himself. But that's your folly.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Your opinion is in direct opposition to the Bible. I recommend that you repent and believe the Bible.