Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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brightfame52

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Varob

God does not open a person's understanding to the doctrines of Calvinism.
Calvinism, TULIP is the Gospel, and you right God doesnt open up lot of people's minds to the Gospel, He has shut their minds to it and they flip it off as calvinism.
 

brightfame52

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john146

Abraham did not have the faith of Christ. It was not available to those OT saints.
Absolutely false, Abraham as did David knew that Christ was to be of his Seed according to the flesh, and God preached Christ to him,the Gospel Gal 3:8,16

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Abraham was given Faith to see Christ Jn 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
 

rogerg

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Abraham did not have the faith of Christ. It was not available to those OT saints. Read Galatians 3. Romans 3:21 also gives us two words “but now.” Gods righteousness had not previously been revealed…but now.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Nope.

Romans 4:49 clearly states that Christ's faith was reckoned to Abraham. That it was is undeniable.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

(Notice the "Even as" - which makes v6 a continuation of v5: Abraham believed God because the Holy Spirit had manifested and ministered unto him for such -- the reason they (V6) believed God was because they had been given the same Holy Spirit that made Abraham to believe. Or conversely, that Abraham had been given the same Holy Spirit that they had been given.

[Gal 3:5-6 KJV]
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

The verses you site were directed to the gentiles - Christ's faith was only manifested to them by/after Christ's offering, not before.
Therefore, the righteousness of Christ through His faith, was no longer denied to them just because of their physical lineage.
The faith of Christ was dispensed by God only to few Jews (not widely) before Christ - to the O.T. men of God such as Abraham and David, therefore, the receiving of the faith of Christ was limited to just a few. Nevertheless, unto those, it was still imputed.

[Act 13:46 KJV] 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

[Act 11:18 KJV] 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

[1Pe 1:11 KJV] 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
 

John146

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Nope.

Romans 4:49 clearly states that Christ's faith was reckoned to Abraham. That it was is undeniable.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

(Notice the "Even as" - which makes v6 a continuation of v5: Abraham believed God because the Holy Spirit had manifested and ministered unto him for such -- the reason they (V6) believed God was because they had been given the same Holy Spirit that made Abraham to believe. Or conversely, that Abraham had been given the same Holy Spirit that they had been given.

[Gal 3:5-6 KJV]
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

The verses you site were directed to the gentiles - Christ's faith was only manifested to them by/after Christ's offering, not before.
Therefore, the righteousness of Christ through His faith, was no longer denied to them just because of their physical lineage.
The faith of Christ was dispensed by God only to few Jews (not widely) before Christ - to the O.T. men of God such as Abraham and David, therefore, the receiving of the faith of Christ was limited to just a few. Nevertheless, unto those, it was still imputed.

[Act 13:46 KJV] 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

[Act 11:18 KJV] 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

[1Pe 1:11 KJV] 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Abraham's faith was reckoned for righteousness because up until Jesus, the faith of Christ was not available...but now! Paul is using Abraham as an example of what we've got now simply by believing in God's word concerning Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, Whose faith? Christ's faith we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Whose faith was revealed? The faith of Jesus Christ!
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, After whose faith is come? Christ's faith we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
 

brightfame52

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Rogerg

(Notice the "Even as" - which makes v6 a continuation of v5: Abraham believed God because the Holy Spirit had manifested and ministered unto him for such -- the reason they (V6) believed God was because they had been given the same Holy Spirit that made Abraham to believe. Or conversely, that Abraham had been given the same Holy Spirit that they had been given.
Amen the same Spirit of Faith in the OT and NT Saints 2 Cor 4:13

13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

A quote from the OT scripture Ps 116:10
 

rogerg

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Abraham's faith was reckoned for righteousness because up until Jesus, the faith of Christ was not available...but now! Paul is using Abraham as an example of what we've got now simply by believing in God's word concerning Jesus Christ.


Galatians 3
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, Whose faith? Christ's faith we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Whose faith was revealed? The faith of Jesus Christ!
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, After whose faith is come? Christ's faith we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Nope.

The faith of Christ is available and present within all who become indwelt by the Holy Spirit because faith is given by the Holy Spirit, regardless of when they live. The receiving of the Holy Spirit alone is the source/cause of true faith.

[Psa 51:11 KJV] 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

[Gal 3:5-6 KJV]
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

[1Pe 1:11 KJV]
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The verses following, CLEARLY demonstrates that FAITH was RECKONED to Abraham FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. How can that even be in dispute?

[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[Rom 4:10 KJV]
10
How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Ti 1:9-10 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ's faith is given individually to those who are to receive it at a time of God's choosing regardless of when they lived.
That faith is the faith being spoken of in "after that faith has come" - the faith that is given individually.
Christ's faith was/is of Him eternally and transcends time. One of Christ's names is "Faithful and True"
Christ being the author and finisher of faith.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Nope.

The faith of Christ is available and present within all who become indwelt by the Holy Spirit because faith is given by the Holy Spirit, regardless of when they live. The receiving of the Holy Spirit alone is the source/cause of true faith.

[Psa 51:11 KJV] 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

[Gal 3:5-6 KJV]
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

[1Pe 1:11 KJV]
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The verses following, CLEARLY demonstrates that FAITH was RECKONED to Abraham FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. How can that even be in dispute?

[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[Rom 4:10 KJV]
10
How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Ti 1:9-10 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ's faith is given individually to those who are to receive it at a time of God's choosing regardless of when they lived.
That faith is the faith being spoken of in "after that faith has come" - the faith that is given individually.
Christ's faith was/is of Him eternally and transcends time. One of Christ's names is "Faithful and True"
Christ being the author and finisher of faith.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But now, the righteousness of God without the law has been manifested....BUT NOW....
 

Evmur

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Mans portion is determined by the will of God, thus Paul says, " The purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth," ( Romans 9:11 ). Election is not based on any thing foreseen in the creature, but of the will of the God exclusively, and for His pleasure. Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Unconditional Election of some was for His Pleasure !
Not unconditional dear brother.

There is a condition.

"whom He foreknew He also predestinated, elected." Not what He knew but who He knew. He knew us from all eternity.
 

ForestGreenCook

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In every context relating to election, it is never about salvation. Predestination is neve about salvation. Context is key. One should never go into scripture with a biased theology in view. It will always influence what the word actually says.

Adoption of children, sounds like salvation.
 

ForestGreenCook

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We are saved through our believing, but when we do believe, Gods righteousness by faith of Jesus Christ is given to us. zero of mine own doing. That’s what leads us to believe because we admit we need a Saviour!

Your failure to see the truths in the doctrine that Jesus taught is hinged upon the fact that you have no knowledge that the salvation scriptures, according to Strong's concordance means a deliverance.

There is a one time deliverance on the cross, for all of those that God gave to Jesus to remit their sins, and gave them the promise of an eternal inheritance.

There are many deliverances that the born again child of God receives as he sojourns here in this world by his good works.

When you interpret all of the salvation scriptures to refer to eternal deliverance, they will tend to teach eternal deliverance by good works, such as accepting, believing hearing, being baptised, repenting, etc., which is a false doctrine.
 

rogerg

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But now, the righteousness of God without the law has been manifested....BUT NOW....
"manifested": to be made known or visible - not to bring forth, but to make generally known to give an understanding and knowledge that God's righteousness is not of/by the law.
 

ForestGreenCook

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God does not open a person's understanding to the doctrines of Calvinism. People are taught them by other Calvinists, and decide to believe them themselves.

God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). God created people in His image, with free will. Even in his fallen state, mankind knows the difference between good and evil (Gen 3:22) and can choose between the two. Salvation is available to anyone.

1 Tim 2:4 - The natural man, before he has been quickened spiritually, cannot come unto the knowledge of spiritual truths (1 Cor 2:14) which he thinks is foolishness.

The newborn babe in Christ is saved=delivered, from his ignorance, when he has matured enough to come unto the knowledge of the truth. This fact also harmonizes with Rom 10:1-3.
 

VARob

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Dec 21, 2020
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1 Tim 2:4 - The natural man, before he has been quickened spiritually, cannot come unto the knowledge of spiritual truths (1 Cor 2:14) which he thinks is foolishness.

The newborn babe in Christ is saved=delivered, from his ignorance, when he has matured enough to come unto the knowledge of the truth. This fact also harmonizes with Rom 10:1-3.
Thanks, Forest. I am familiar with what you believe.

I don't agree.
 

ForestGreenCook

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God does not open a person's understanding to the doctrines of Calvinism. People are taught them by other Calvinists, and decide to believe them themselves.

God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). God created people in His image, with free will. Even in his fallen state, mankind knows the difference between good and evil (Gen 3:22) and can choose between the two. Salvation is available to anyone.

2 Pet 3:9 - 2 Pet 1:1 explains who Peter is talking to, and it is to them that have obtained like precious faith, Peter, also, includes himself is his warning by using the word "USWARD".


God is longsuffering when they separate themselves from his fellowship, by committing a sin, not willing that any of them would perish=death=separation, but that all of them would come to repentance, and gain their fellowship back.
 

brightfame52

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Not unconditional dear brother.

There is a condition.

"whom He foreknew He also predestinated, elected." Not what He knew but who He knew. He knew us from all eternity.
Still unconditional in the ones foreknown.
 

VARob

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Dec 21, 2020
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Are you not interested in gleaning the truths of the scriptures, with harmonizing them together with each other?
My, such a condescending statement. :)

You assume that because I don't agree with you, I'm not interested in the truths of the scriptures, or in them harmonizing.

Pretty funny, Forest.
 

ForestGreenCook

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My, such a condescending statement. :)

You assume that because I don't agree with you, I'm not interested in the truths of the scriptures, or in them harmonizing.

Pretty funny, Forest.

Are you sure that you are on the right forum? Is not this forum a bible discussion forum?
 

VARob

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Are you sure that you are on the right forum?
Yep.

Is not this forum a bible discussion forum?
It is. But we (both of us) just keep repeating ourselves. What's the point?

You choose to remain a Calvinist. I choose to believe that God wants everyone to be saved and that anyone can be saved.

...your statement was still condescending.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Yep.


It is. But we (both of us) just keep repeating ourselves. What's the point?

You choose to remain a Calvinist. I choose to believe that God wants everyone to be saved and that anyone can be saved.

...your statement was still condescending.
Yep.


It is. But we (both of us) just keep repeating ourselves. What's the point?

You choose to remain a Calvinist. I choose to believe that God wants everyone to be saved and that anyone can be saved.

...your statement was still condescending.

No doubt that you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, I pray that maybe someday, when you humble yourself in giving up on your work system, the Holy Spirit will reveal some truths to you