Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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John146

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Which is what the scripture teach, because they are being preserved by God.
That is what the scriptures concerning the Jewish remnant during the time of Jacob's trouble teaches, not the scriptures to the body of Christ. Right divide the two.
 

brightfame52

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Unconditional election; this means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that causes Him to save us. Rather election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save according to the good pleasure of His own will. This salvation based on His Sovereign purpose of election Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) 4
 

John146

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Unconditional election; this means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that causes Him to save us. Rather election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save according to the good pleasure of His own will. This salvation based on His Sovereign purpose of election Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) 4
God didn’t elect to save Jacob but not Esau. This passage of God choosing which boy would be used as part of the seed line of Christ. It’s about service not salvation.
 

brightfame52

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john146

God didn’t elect to save Jacob but not Esau.
Sure He did, plus He elected esau to wrath and destruction

This passage of God choosing which boy would be used as part of the seed line of Christ. It’s about service not salvation.
Its about Salvation and spiritual service. Salvation is in order to serve God Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God

Howbeit Gods election to Salvation is unconditional, jacob was just as ungodly as esau
 

John146

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john146



Sure He did, plus He elected esau to wrath and destruction



Its about Salvation and spiritual service. Salvation is in order to serve God Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God

Howbeit Gods election to Salvation is unconditional, jacob was just as ungodly as esau

Election is always found in a temporal setting. Again, salvation is not the topic of discussion and also note that the "decrees of God" in (verses 12 and 13), happen in time. Verse 12 was said when she conceived ... (verse 10, and 13) is a quote from (Mal. 1:2,3) again in time. No eternal election is found in the passage.

9:12 (Gen. 25:23)
9:13 (Mal. 1:2,3) This is said many years after both Jacob and Esau are dead and buried.
9:15,16 This is the second most used passage by the Calvinist in the Bible.

The Calvinist reads it this way:
"For he saith unto Moses, I will put into heaven those whom I've predestinated to go to heaven and I will elect to heaven those who the blood pays for, so it is not the sinner by an act of the will that receives Jesus Christ, nor the man that works, but by the sovereignty of God that elects people without the exercise of their own free will."

Note carefully the context, (vs. 11, 12, 13) Old Testament. No one in the Old Testament is "in Christ". The subject is mercy and compassion, not salvation. A man cannot force God, by his will or works to have mercy on him. The practical application would be: if you are going to receive mercy, you. will receive it on God's terms not your own, you can't will it or work it any other way.
 

brightfame52

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Election is always found in a temporal setting. Again, salvation is not the topic of discussion and also note that the "decrees of God" in (verses 12 and 13), happen in time. Verse 12 was said when she conceived ... (verse 10, and 13) is a quote from (Mal. 1:2,3) again in time. No eternal election is found in the passage.

9:12 (Gen. 25:23)
9:13 (Mal. 1:2,3) This is said many years after both Jacob and Esau are dead and buried.
9:15,16 This is the second most used passage by the Calvinist in the Bible.

The Calvinist reads it this way:
"For he saith unto Moses, I will put into heaven those whom I've predestinated to go to heaven and I will elect to heaven those who the blood pays for, so it is not the sinner by an act of the will that receives Jesus Christ, nor the man that works, but by the sovereignty of God that elects people without the exercise of their own free will."

Note carefully the context, (vs. 11, 12, 13) Old Testament. No one in the Old Testament is "in Christ". The subject is mercy and compassion, not salvation. A man cannot force God, by his will or works to have mercy on him. The practical application would be: if you are going to receive mercy, you. will receive it on God's terms not your own, you can't will it or work it any other way.
Election is to Salvation, and its to damnation, but its something only God can open your understanding to.
 

John146

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Election is to Salvation, and its to damnation, but its something only God can open your understanding to.
God has opened my understanding by sticking with the clear reading of scripture and not the theology of a Catholic man.
 

rogerg

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God has opened my understanding by sticking with the clear reading of scripture and not the theology of a Catholic man.
How do you define a "clear reading of scripture" and what is your process for doing that?
 

John146

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How do you define a "clear reading of scripture" and what is your process for doing that?
In every context relating to election, it is never about salvation. Predestination is neve about salvation. Context is key. One should never go into scripture with a biased theology in view. It will always influence what the word actually says.
 

rogerg

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In every context relating to election, it is never about salvation. Predestination is neve about salvation. Context is key. One should never go into scripture with a biased theology in view. It will always influence what the word actually says.
lol. It is ALWAYS about salvation, and you are the one with the biased views.
Where do you get this stuff from? Your conclusions are totally incorrect. I guess they are what came from your following of
your own rules (for biblical interpretation), instead of that which the Bible teaches - probably because your eyes remain closed or you wouldn't have done it that way in the first place.
Can you understand the following verses? Read them closely. They absolutely refute everything you've posted - they aren't my words, assumptions or conclusions - they are the Bible's words - do you think them wrong or that Paul was lying ? How is it you can ignore them? Where do you find that man contributes anything at all? Instead, it is ALL of God and of His salvation. These verses are just a sampling of what God has provided throughout the whole Bible They are incontrovertible. Look especially at the highlighted/underscored they should help.
.
[Eph 2:1-10 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

John146

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lol. It is ALWAYS about salvation, and you are the one with the biased views.
Where do you get this stuff from? Your conclusions are totally incorrect. I guess they are what came from your following of
your own rules (for biblical interpretation), instead of that which the Bible teaches - probably because your eyes remain closed or you wouldn't have done it that way in the first place.
Can you understand the following verses? Read them closely. They absolutely refute everything you've posted - they aren't my words, assumptions or conclusions - they are the Bible's words - do you think them wrong or that Paul was lying ? How is it you can ignore them? Where do you find that man contributes anything at all? Instead, it is ALL of God and of His salvation. These verses are just a sampling of what God has provided throughout the whole Bible They are incontrovertible. Look especially at the highlighted/underscored they should help.
.
[Eph 2:1-10 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Great passage that has zero to do with election for salvation. In Chapter 1 Paul states how to get that grace applied.

1. hear the gospel
2. believe/trust the gospel
3. sealed unto the redemption
 

rogerg

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Great passage that has zero to do with election for salvation. In Chapter 1 Paul states how to get that grace applied.

1. hear the gospel
2. believe/trust the gospel
3. sealed unto the redemption
You're joking, right? The whole Bible is explicitly built upon, and whose purpose is, salvation through/by Christ and not of ourselves. You must be reading from a different book if you don't see that. The above might be correct if you changed your #3 to #1
What do you think these verses means?
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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You're joking, right? The whole Bible is explicitly built upon, and whose purpose is, salvation through/by Christ and not of ourselves. You must be reading from a different book if you don't see that. The above might be correct if you changed your #3 to #1
What do you think these verses means?
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
We are saved through our believing, but when we do believe, Gods righteousness by faith of Jesus Christ is given to us. zero of mine own doing. That’s what leads us to believe because we admit we need a Saviour!
 

rogerg

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We are saved through our believing, but when we do believe, Gods righteousness by faith of Jesus Christ is given to us. zero of mine own doing. That’s what leads us to believe because we admit we need a Saviour!
Well, if that's true, then the "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" part has to be wrong because should we have to
achieve it through a belief of/by ourselves, then it simply can't be as a gift of God's as the verse states it is- only one can be correct.
Of ourselves, it is impossible as a non-believer to believe. It is through the faith of Christ, that belief is given. The faith of Christ
is reckoned/imputed upon becoming born again and becoming born again from being saved. That is why/how it is the gift of God.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 

Magenta

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Faith the size of a mustard seed moved the mountain of my unbelief :)
 

John146

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Well, if that's true, then the "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" part has to be wrong because should we have to
achieve it through a belief of/by ourselves, then it simply can't be as a gift of God's as the verse states it is- only one can be correct.
Of ourselves, it is impossible as a non-believer to believe. It is through the faith of Christ, that belief is given. The faith of Christ
is reckoned/imputed upon becoming born again and becoming born again from being saved. That is why/how it is the gift of God.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Grace is a gift from God. It’s given to those that believe. Here is a biblical definition of what it means to believe. Abraham was fully persuaded in Gods word and that God would do what he promised.

Romans 4
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
 

rogerg

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22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Nope!

Look closely at the verses you included.
Abraham "staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief but was strong in faith". The reason Abraham's belief gave
glory to God was only because it was God who imputed to Abraham that faith - V20.
Because of Christ's faith imputed to Abraham, Abraham became persuaded (V21).
It doesn't say righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of Abraham's faith; it says that faith was imputed to Abraham to give him (for) righteousness (V22). Please focus in on and understand the difference between the two.
The "it" of the verse, is faith that had been IMPUTED to him for righteousness -- it was not Abraham's faith - it was Christ's faith that was "IMPUTED TO HIM" - that's the only way righteousness is/can be obtained.
Abraham's faith, were it possible to actually be of/from Abraham, would have of itself no righteousness because he, like us all, have no righteousness. Instead, the righteousness of the verse could only have been through Christ's righteousness. See the below verses.

In 4:9, do you see that "faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness" (bolded, underscored)
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

In 3:9 do you see that righteousness is only through the faith of Christ (bolded, underscored).
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 

VARob

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Election is to Salvation, and its to damnation, but its something only God can open your understanding to.
God does not open a person's understanding to the doctrines of Calvinism. People are taught them by other Calvinists, and decide to believe them themselves.

God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). God created people in His image, with free will. Even in his fallen state, mankind knows the difference between good and evil (Gen 3:22) and can choose between the two. Salvation is available to anyone.
 

John146

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Nope!

Look closely at the verses you included.
Abraham "staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief but was strong in faith". The reason Abraham's belief gave
glory to God was only because it was God who imputed to Abraham that faith - V20.
Because of Christ's faith imputed to Abraham, Abraham became persuaded (V21).
It doesn't say righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of Abraham's faith; it says that faith was imputed to Abraham to give him (for) righteousness (V22). Please focus in on and understand the difference between the two.
The "it" of the verse, is faith that had been IMPUTED to him for righteousness -- it was not Abraham's faith - it was Christ's faith that was "IMPUTED TO HIM" - that's the only way righteousness is/can be obtained.
Abraham's faith, were it possible to actually be of/from Abraham, would have of itself no righteousness because he, like us all, have no righteousness. Instead, the righteousness of the verse could only have been through Christ's righteousness. See the below verses.

In 4:9, do you see that "faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness" (bolded, underscored)
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

In 3:9 do you see that righteousness is only through the faith of Christ (bolded, underscored).
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Abraham did not have the faith of Christ. It was not available to those OT saints. Read Galatians 3. Romans 3:21 also gives us two words “but now.” Gods righteousness had not previously been revealed…but now.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: