Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Jan 15, 2023
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Hello All,
I was raised Baptist, and held to an Arminian* (who so ever) view through all those years...later joined a Calvanistic church where I loved the preaching and teaching and immersed myself in it...but continued to hold to my view of the baptist upbringing......I spoke to the pastor about it and he had me read a book by R.C Sproul.... which was very in depth with scripture...My shell was begining to crack...but still not ready... I had become an understudy of a scholarly man.. and presented my argument to him....he did something I thought was incredibly strange... He lifted his Bible shoulder high pages down and dropped it to the floor... he then requested I pick it up and read 5the first page my fingers touch ....I did and to my surprise there were passages that talked about Gods complete sovereignty... I repeated the process several times with him......and became convinced after him saying... the doctrine is on EVERY page of the BIBLE... that it must be true ...and am now an unchangeable reform Bible student.....

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!!!
Clarence
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
935
113
Hello All,
I was raised Baptist, and held to an Arminian* (who so ever) view through all those years...later joined a Calvanistic church where I loved the preaching and teaching and immersed myself in it...but continued to hold to my view of the baptist upbringing......I spoke to the pastor about it and he had me read a book by R.C Sproul.... which was very in depth with scripture...My shell was begining to crack...but still not ready... I had become an understudy of a scholarly man.. and presented my argument to him....he did something I thought was incredibly strange... He lifted his Bible shoulder high pages down and dropped it to the floor... he then requested I pick it up and read 5the first page my fingers touch ....I did and to my surprise there were passages that talked about Gods complete sovereignty... I repeated the process several times with him......and became convinced after him saying... the doctrine is on EVERY page of the BIBLE... that it must be true ...and am now an unchangeable reform Bible student.....

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!!!
Clarence
Welcome Clarence! Good thing you are a warrior those of us that hold to anything close to the sovereignty of God tend to be out numbered. Most here will tell ya God is sovereign in most everything except Salvation ! You were as much saved as a Baptist as you are today. The gain in understanding of His Word is wonderful ! I was raised Pentecostaldispensationalist :) Knowing labels help us get to know one another although most folks dont fit into this or that box exactly i will also take the label of Reformer
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Subtract out time and eternity from the equation. That is our domain. God's perspective is always eternal. Knowing the end from the beginning.

Thus the seeming paradoxes and dilemmas. The fault lies when postulating a diminishing God's love, longsuffering, kindness and grace toward fallen men. Evidently hard-core ******ists etc fall prey to this folly.

It's a big mistake to mischaracterize the Gracious One IMO.

Luk 19:21
For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
I didnt understand a thing you said !
 

Bob-Carabbio

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Jun 24, 2020
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Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​
Click to expand...​
Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​
I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !
SO according to you, "ELECTION" is totally arbitrary.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Amen. This is one of the places where Calvinists go off the rails. They have no conception of God's foreknowledge. He foreknows who will accept Him and He foreknows who will reject Him. A prime example of this is Judas.
Yes God has foreknowledge of who will believe in Him because He determined that they would, He determined that He would quicken them from Spiritual death and give them Faith to believe.

God also determined who would not believe and He would dam them for their sins.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Amen. This is one of the places where Calvinists go off the rails. They have no conception of God's foreknowledge. He foreknows who will accept Him and He foreknows who will reject Him. A prime example of this is Judas.
Too many commentators (and others) are defining God's will by the constraints of fallen man i.e. "TIME".
Obviously this is a erroneous imposition.

Then comes the folly of hurling condemnations toward God because of What and Who He is.....eternal and omniscient.

Let God be God and pray that He will fulfill His gracious will. And let's do our part by being obedience children and preaching boldly.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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It's kinda like willy-nilly, and/or playing, eeny, meeny, miny, moe -:unsure:
I never really understood that rhyme. How exactly would you catch a tiger by the toe? Would said toe hold only work on tigers? Is hollering the only criteria for letting go?
Rhymes should explain things better, not cause more questions to be asked imo.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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I didnt understand a thing you said !
Fixed it for you lol.

"Subtract out time from Gill's equation. That is our limited domain. God's perspective is always eternal. Knowing the end from the beginning.

Doing so (removing TIME) will nullify the seeming paradoxes and dilemmas. The fault lies when someone postulates that election/predestination infers or demands a diminishing of God's love, longsuffering, kindness and grace toward fallen men. Evidently hard-core ******ists etc fall prey to this folly.

This is wrong and it's a severe mischaracterizing of the Gracious One IMO."


I am on zero carb diet right now.....sooooo yea the grey matter is starving for glucose lately :LOL:
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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I don't follow your point. I've already explained this - that is by God's gift given to His elect.
It seems you're reposting a prior one. Did you miss my reply to it?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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As a wise person on a different thread once said, that would then be a knowledge of what, not whom, but the foreknowledge is of whom, not what.

[Rom 8:29 KJV] 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
God has a foreknowledge of everything. That's how we get prophecy. Pass that on to "wise man" for me. ;)
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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God has a foreknowledge of everything. That's how we get prophecy. Pass that on to "wise man" for me. ;)
That says nothing unless, that is, you are saying everyone is to become saved. Is that what you mean?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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faith/belief is a gift given by God through spiritual rebirth, and only those given that gift will truly seek after God.
Faith/Belief is a prerequisite to salvation. It is a choice, not a "gift".

Acts 10:43
“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

As I said before:
He foreknows who will accept Him and He foreknows who will reject Him. A prime example of this is Judas.
 

Beckie

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Feb 15, 2022
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Faith/Belief is a prerequisite to salvation. It is a choice, not a "gift".

Acts 10:43
“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

As I said before:
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

One of the really cool things about the Scriptures is they way read to each of us?
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Faith/Belief is a prerequisite to salvation. It is a choice, not a "gift".

Acts 10:43
“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

As I said before:
No, it's not a prerequisite to salvation. The only prerequisite to salvation is that God chose that person for salvation. True faith
is a gift from the fruit of the Spirit upon becoming born-again, from having been saved - everything else flows from that:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Those who believe, have been given faith through the fruit of the Spirit.
The "whosoever" are those who are made born-again.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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Yes God has foreknowledge of who will believe in Him because He determined that they would
No, He did not.
God also determined who would not believe and He would dam them for their sins.
He did not. God loves all and desires that all would come to Him. You preach a false Gospel and should be ejected.
2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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No, He did not.

He did not. God loves all and desires that all would come to Him. You preach a false Gospel and should be ejected.
2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
No, he shouldn't be because he is correct. And since you've quoted that verse, who do you think those "us-ward" are and why?