Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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This question doesn't support any attempt to link election to salvation, but the answer is that God has chosen those who have believed to serve Him. I've proven that from a number of Scriptures. The "enablement" you note comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit, who God has gifted to all believers.
No, that is only your inaccurate opinion. This is not what I say, but rather, what the Bible says. Why don't you believe what I've shown you from the Bible?
Where is any verse that specifically says man is unconditionally elected to salvation? There aren't any.
Why do you opine so, since I've NEVER said any such thing.
No. If it were, then salvation would include works. Is that your conclusion? If so, it's wildly inaccurate.
No, that is only your inaccurate opinion. This is not what I say, but rather, what the Bible says. Why don't you believe what I've shown you from the Bible?
Where is any verse that specifically says man is unconditionally elected to salvation? There aren't any.
Why do you opine so, since I've NEVER said any such thing.
No. If it were, then salvation would include works. Is that your conclusion? If so, it's wildly inaccurate.
FreeGrace2 said:
No one would argue with this. But it still misses the whole point. Election is NOT to salvation, and neither nor anyone else has ever proven that.
You need to get over the Calvinist claim about their doctrine. It is NOT to salvation. It is to SERVICE, as I've been proving from Scripture.
This is such an empty claim, when not accompanied with Scripture.
Please pick the most clear verse that says this then. btw, what do "gentiles" have to do with the doctrine of election to salvation anyway?
If you claim that election is an unconditional choice to salvation, then YES YOU ARE proclaiming heresy.
Salvation is by gracd THROUGH FAITH. Since you seem not to understand, the capitalized words ARE a condition.
And Paul's answer to the jailer includes THE SINGLE condition: believing.
"BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus and you WILL BE SAVED".
No one would argue with this. But it still misses the whole point. Election is NOT to salvation, and neither nor anyone else has ever proven that.
You need to get over the Calvinist claim about their doctrine. It is NOT to salvation. It is to SERVICE, as I've been proving from Scripture.
This is such an empty claim, when not accompanied with Scripture.
Please pick the most clear verse that says this then. btw, what do "gentiles" have to do with the doctrine of election to salvation anyway?
If you claim that election is an unconditional choice to salvation, then YES YOU ARE proclaiming heresy.
Salvation is by gracd THROUGH FAITH. Since you seem not to understand, the capitalized words ARE a condition.
And Paul's answer to the jailer includes THE SINGLE condition: believing.
"BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus and you WILL BE SAVED".
There doesnt have to be a verse that says Christ died only for the elect, He already specifically stated who He died for, His Sheep, who are His Elect Jn 10:11,15.
Then its indicated in the epistles for instance Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us[Elect].
You need to be concerned about what the scripture says, instead of what it doesnt say.
Then its indicated in the epistles for instance Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us[Elect].
You need to be concerned about what the scripture says, instead of what it doesnt say.
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They are the same. How can you testify of the Grace of God, the Good News of it, and neglect the fact that Election is of Grace Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
FreeGrace2 said:
but the answer is that God has chosen those who have believed to serve Him
It seems you are totally missing the point. I am not saying anything opposite of Scripture. Rom 9:16 is in the context of election. And the text addresses the purpose.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
v.11 addresses God's PURPOSE in election. v.12 shows that God is the One who calls/elects. And as you can easily see here, the purpose of election is NOT salvation. It's that the older brother will serve the younger brother.
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” This is a quote from Malachi, the last book in the OT. Far removed from the actual brothers, Jacob and Esau. Malachi was referring to Israel and Edom, Israel from Jacob, and Edom from Esau.
And God's choice that the older (Edom) DID serve the younger (Israel). Bingo.
but the answer is that God has chosen those who have believed to serve Him
It seems you are totally missing the point. I am not saying anything opposite of Scripture. Rom 9:16 is in the context of election. And the text addresses the purpose.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
v.11 addresses God's PURPOSE in election. v.12 shows that God is the One who calls/elects. And as you can easily see here, the purpose of election is NOT salvation. It's that the older brother will serve the younger brother.
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” This is a quote from Malachi, the last book in the OT. Far removed from the actual brothers, Jacob and Esau. Malachi was referring to Israel and Edom, Israel from Jacob, and Edom from Esau.
And God's choice that the older (Edom) DID serve the younger (Israel). Bingo.
FreeGrace2 said:
There is no mention of election involved in salvation.
please show any verse that mentions "election of grace".
There is no mention of election in this or any other verse about salvation.
Where are your verses that mention "election of grace"? Your question does not answer my request.
Where are your verses that mention election is for salvation? You still have not done that.
Of course salvation is of grace. But that is not the issue. Everything that God does for us is by grace. So you haven't proven anything.
There is no mention of election involved in salvation.
please show any verse that mentions "election of grace".
There is no mention of election in this or any other verse about salvation.
Where are your verses that mention "election of grace"? Your question does not answer my request.
Where are your verses that mention election is for salvation? You still have not done that.
Of course salvation is of grace. But that is not the issue. Everything that God does for us is by grace. So you haven't proven anything.
FreeGrace2 said:
Please show any verse that says Christ only died for the elect.
lol. In John 10, Jesus specifically identified several kinds of sheep.
1. THE sheep
2. His sheep (Jews)
3. Other sheep of His (Gentiles)
4. those NOT His sheep.
So, there are sheep that are His, those who aren't, and the WHOLE herd, which He calls THE sheep.
What you seem unaware of is that when He said He would die for THE sheep, He was saying that He would die for everyone.
I've already shown you all the verses that plainly say that He died for all. And there is NOTHING in any of the contexts that could conclude that "all" doesn't mean everyone.
Uh, no it isn't.
Sure, all believers have been chosen for service, per Eph 1:4 and have been justified.
Just because a verse says that Christ for believers doesn't prove that He died ONLY for believers. Go and find such a verse.
lol. How about yourself?
Please show any verse that says Christ only died for the elect.
lol. In John 10, Jesus specifically identified several kinds of sheep.
1. THE sheep
2. His sheep (Jews)
3. Other sheep of His (Gentiles)
4. those NOT His sheep.
So, there are sheep that are His, those who aren't, and the WHOLE herd, which He calls THE sheep.
What you seem unaware of is that when He said He would die for THE sheep, He was saying that He would die for everyone.
I've already shown you all the verses that plainly say that He died for all. And there is NOTHING in any of the contexts that could conclude that "all" doesn't mean everyone.
Uh, no it isn't.
Sure, all believers have been chosen for service, per Eph 1:4 and have been justified.
Just because a verse says that Christ for believers doesn't prove that He died ONLY for believers. Go and find such a verse.
lol. How about yourself?
Hi Freegrace,
You seem to be of the opinion that people disagree with you about God choosing/electing people to serve Him. Of course his children serve Him. The point which is evading you is that God is the one choosing who will be in his service.
I'll give you an example. Lets say God chose you freegrace to serve him, but you refuse to come to faith. What does that say about God's electing purpose?
FreeGrace2 said:
Please show any verse that says Christ only died for the elect.
lol. In John 10, Jesus specifically identified several kinds of sheep.
1. THE sheep
2. His sheep (Jews)
3. Other sheep of His (Gentiles)
4. those NOT His sheep.
So, there are sheep that are His, those who aren't, and the WHOLE herd, which He calls THE sheep.
What you seem unaware of is that when He said He would die for THE sheep, He was saying that He would die for everyone.
I've already shown you all the verses that plainly say that He died for all. And there is NOTHING in any of the contexts that could conclude that "all" doesn't mean everyone.
I have shown YOU Scripture enough that you are accountable for.
Here's the difference:
I have addressed all the verses you have shown and provided an explanation that fits all of Scripture. Unlike yourself.
And you have ignored all of my verses. No explanation or any kind of comment.
That speaks volumes to those who read the thread.
If you can explain the 4 categories of sheep above and explain how I'm wrong, please proceed.
What should be clear to everyone is that if Jesus differentiated between sheep that were His and those who weren't, and He was going to die ONLY for those who were His, He would have said that He would die for HIS sheep, not THE sheep.
Jesus emphasized both HIS and THE sheep. So they are clearly different, especially since He also noted those who were not His sheep.
Dying for THE sheep means dying for everyone, not just HIS sheep. That is the point.
Please show any verse that says Christ only died for the elect.
lol. In John 10, Jesus specifically identified several kinds of sheep.
1. THE sheep
2. His sheep (Jews)
3. Other sheep of His (Gentiles)
4. those NOT His sheep.
So, there are sheep that are His, those who aren't, and the WHOLE herd, which He calls THE sheep.
What you seem unaware of is that when He said He would die for THE sheep, He was saying that He would die for everyone.
I've already shown you all the verses that plainly say that He died for all. And there is NOTHING in any of the contexts that could conclude that "all" doesn't mean everyone.
I have shown YOU Scripture enough that you are accountable for.
Here's the difference:
I have addressed all the verses you have shown and provided an explanation that fits all of Scripture. Unlike yourself.
And you have ignored all of my verses. No explanation or any kind of comment.
That speaks volumes to those who read the thread.
If you can explain the 4 categories of sheep above and explain how I'm wrong, please proceed.
What should be clear to everyone is that if Jesus differentiated between sheep that were His and those who weren't, and He was going to die ONLY for those who were His, He would have said that He would die for HIS sheep, not THE sheep.
Jesus emphasized both HIS and THE sheep. So they are clearly different, especially since He also noted those who were not His sheep.
Dying for THE sheep means dying for everyone, not just HIS sheep. That is the point.