Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Freegrace,

You seem to be of the opinion that people disagree with you about God choosing/electing people to serve Him.

How can that be, since my point all along is that is exactly what election is about??

Of course his children serve Him.

So you think service is automatic, huh? Then why are there so many commands about serving Him if it is automatic?

The point which is evading you is that God is the one choosing who will be in his service.

I said that. Eph 1:4 says that.

I'll give you an example. Lets say God chose you freegrace to serve him, but you refuse to come to faith. What does that say about God's electing purpose?

Let's say your example is a poor one. Your example has God choosing someone to serve Him who isn't a believer. The Bible tells us the opposite is true.

Eph 1:4 says that God chose US (believers)...to be holy and blameless. That is a statement of service. A holy lifestyle.

Eph 1:19 defines exactly who Paul means by "us" in the phrase "us who believe".

I hope this is clear.

What I've been asking for and not receiving is any verse that clearly indicates that God chooses unconditionally for salvation.

In fact, God does choose who will be saved. But, there IS a condition to be met in His choice.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This is clearly a choice God makes based on the condition of believing.

Remember, the Calvinist doctrine of election is Unconditional election.

I actually AGREE that God's election is unconditional. He chooses both unbelievers and believers to accomplish His will.

We see this in Judas in John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

We also see this in Rev 17:17 - For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

 

[phil36]

I'll give you an example. Lets say God chose you freegrace to serve him, but you refuse to come to faith. What does that say about God's electing purpose?

Let's say your example is a poor one. Your example has God choosing someone to serve Him who isn't a believer. The Bible tells us the opposite is true.

So your saying that God only chooses someone to serve once that person has believed?

Eph 1:4 says that God chose US (believers)...to be holy and blameless. That is a statement of service. A holy lifestyle.

What makes a person Holy?

 

[John146]

So your saying that God only chooses someone to serve once that person has believed?





What makes a person Holy?

One day, I will stand before Him holy and without blame. I cannot do that until the adoption. The believer who is in Him, is predestinated for the adoption. It is a future redemption of the body. On that day, I will finally be sinless, body, soul, and spirit.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us (those in him)unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[phil36]

What makes a person Holy?

One day, I will stand before Him holy and without blame. I cannot do that until the adoption. The believer who is in Him, is predestinated for the adoption. It is a future redemption of the body. On that day, I will finally be sinless, body, soul, and spirit.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us (those in him)unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

So are you not Holy now?

 

[John146]

So are you not Holy now?

My soul is holy, but not my body. I am commanded to offer my body a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God Which is my reasonable service. My body is not yet redeemed. Yes?

 

[phil36]

My soul is holy, but not my body. I am commanded to offer my body a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God Which is my reasonable service. My body is not yet redeemed. Yes?

Very good.. Its the already + not yet tension

So back to the question, what makes you Holy now? How did you become Holy?

 

[John146]

Very good.. Its the already + not yet tension

So back to the question, what makes you Holy?

The shed blood of Jesus Christ makes me holy, set apart for his service. Is that the definition of holy we are using? Set apart for the Lord?

 

[phil36]

The shed blood of Jesus Christ makes me holy, set apart for his service. Is that the definition of holy we are using? Set apart for the Lord?

How are you set apart.. How does a spirually dead man become alive in Christ, so that he can be of service?

 

[John146]

How are you set apart.. How does a spirually dead man become alive in Christ, so that he can be of service?

Let‘s continue in Ephesians 1. I’ll put my thoughts in bold.

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. We are accepted in Christ
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; blessings found in Christ
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: Gods purpose for man is found in Christ
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: resurrection of the body, the future redemption
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: in Christ, the believer is predestinated for future glory
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. To get in on this future glory one has to first trust Christ
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, in order to trust Christ, one needs to hear the gospel. After believing the gospel, the believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit for this future glory which is the redemption of the body, verse 14
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Grandpa]

John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Prove from context that John meant "Only the world of the elect".

Yes, no problem.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If the sin of the world meant every single person and NOT just the world of the elect then there would be nothing to condemn anyone for.

All sin of the whole world would be atoned for.


The Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world, for everyone who comes to Christ.

Unbelievers do not receive this blessing.

 

[Hungry]

Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Click to expand...​

Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​

I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !

I think the reason there is so much division on this matter is because people like yourself choose to see what they want to see. All of Scripture and the whole heart of God cannot be summed up in a handful of verses. Like you stated, God does in fact steer the course of history according to His will by selecting some individuals He requires to fill His purposes. However, like illustrated by the gentile woman who approached Christ and accepted His label of “dog”, and asked for the “crumbs that fell between the cracks of the table”, God receives the humble hearted. Like a body, not all parts are equal. Some parts are essential and others merely assist. All critical organs in Christ’s Body are, like you stated, Elect. They have been chosen and glorified to directly accomplish an orchestrated purpose. Others who see the glory of God and desire to be grafted to the Vine, are not turned away. They may not be read about, but they will be our brothers and sisters in eternity.

 

[Grandpa]

Well if Christ Jesus does not save sinners then who does He save? Since we are all sinners, and according to you He does not save them then we are all toast.

But wait what do I see here
Luk 19:10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Mat 9:13 But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE MERCY AND NOT SACRIFICE.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."
Luk 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

And in-case you missed it that includes all of us
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Actually unbelievers are the only ones that Christ Jesus can save as we are all sinners in need of a saviour. And this may shock you but even after we are saved we still need a saviour. If and when you stop knowing you need a saviour then you are lost and then are truly in need of a saviour.

I didn't say sinners.

I said unbelievers.

Reading comprehension.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So your saying that God only chooses someone to serve once that person has believed?
OK, to be clear, the typical understanding of the Calvinist doctrine of election is that God unconditionally elects certain people to salvation. So included in this idea that God MUST regenerate that person so that they CAN believe in Christ. Therefore, the foundation of this Calvinist doctrine is that God chooses who will believe. That is not biblical.

However, God does choose unbelievers for service as well. We see this in John 6:70,71 in regard to Judas. Judas fulfilled Scripture by betraying Jesus.

We also see this in Rev 17:17 - For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

Both examples clearly state that such choosing is to fulfill Scripture.

What makes a person Holy?

The word basically means "to be set apart for a special use". That would apply to all believers, who have been chosen to serve God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Very good.. Its the already + not yet tension

Oh, sure. The Bible contains "tension" huh?

The definition of 'tension' means opposing ideas. Is that what you think is in the Bible?

There is no tension in the Bible. Bible teachers/pastors/etc are showing their ignorance when they make this claim. It is impossible for the Bible to have tension in it.

Certainly not tension between different doctrines.

When people claim there is tension in the Bible, they simply fail to understand either side of the issue, or even both sides.

So back to the question, what makes you Holy now? How did you become Holy?

1 Pet 1-
15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

So, let me ask you this: are you holy like God is holy?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The shed blood of Jesus Christ makes me holy, set apart for his service. Is that the definition of holy we are using? Set apart for the Lord?

I agree with this. Just to clarify, this refers to positional sanctification, that believers are positionally holy because all believers are IN Christ. However, believers are commanded to "work out their salvation" which refers to progressive sanctification, or spiritual growth.

So we need to clarify which sanctification we are referring to.

 

[cv5]

How can that be, since my point all along is that is exactly what election is about??


So you think service is automatic, huh? Then why are there so many commands about serving Him if it is automatic?


I said that. Eph 1:4 says that.


Let's say your example is a poor one. Your example has God choosing someone to serve Him who isn't a believer. The Bible tells us the opposite is true.

Eph 1:4 says that God chose US (believers)...to be holy and blameless. That is a statement of service. A holy lifestyle.

Eph 1:19 defines exactly who Paul means by "us" in the phrase "us who believe".

I hope this is clear.

What I've been asking for and not receiving is any verse that clearly indicates that God chooses unconditionally for salvation.

In fact, God does choose who will be saved. But, there IS a condition to be met in His choice.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This is clearly a choice God makes based on the condition of believing.

Remember, the Calvinist doctrine of election is Unconditional election.

I actually AGREE that God's election is unconditional. He chooses both unbelievers and believers to accomplish His will.

We see this in Judas in John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

We also see this in Rev 17:17 - For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

Look.....read Colossians 3:12. The term elect is undoubtedly speaking of the saved....saved gentiles. To you think that the term "elect" there only applies to service or to Jews is preposterous.

"Therefore as the elect of God holy and beloved......"
And THEN there is a call to service as the verse continues.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How are you set apart.. How does a spirually dead man become alive in Christ, so that he can be of service?

Great question! Paul answers this in Eph 2.

v.5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Here, the bold phrases at the beginning and end of the verse are equated. iow, Paul clarifies what he means by "made us alive" by saying "you have been saved".

They go together. You can't have one without the other. Or prove it from Scripture, showing a saved person who wasn't made alive, or a regenerated person who wasn't saved. Impossible.

v. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Now, we have the same phrase from the end of v.5 in v.8 and the MEANS or METHOD of our salvation.

Therefore, both regeneration and salvation are THROUGH FAITH.

So, to answer your question, a spiritually dead man becomes alive in Christ THROUGH FAITH.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If the sin of the world meant every single person and NOT just the world of the elect then there would be nothing to condemn anyone for.

You seem to assume that Christ's death for someone means salvation for that person. That is a very wrong assumption. No where in the Bible do we find the teaching that Christ's death saves people. But feel free to find such a verse and please share with me.

Instead, we find this teaching from Paul in Romans-
4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
5:6 - You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

4:25 says our justification is based on Christ's resurrection, NOT His death.
5:1 links our justification to faith. That's how one is justified or saved.
5:6 I think it's rather obvious that "the ungodly" has to refer to the entire human race.

Unless you want to argue that ONLY the "elect" are ungodly. Is that your argument? Not mine.

All sin of the whole world would be atoned for.

Well, how about that! There is a verse about that.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins ( believers), and not only for ours (believers) but also for the sins of the whole world (unbelievers).

The Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world, for everyone who comes to Christ.

That's NOT what John the baptizer said in John 1:29 nor the Samaritans in John 4:42.

Please don;t add your own opinion to Scripture. Neither John the baptizer nor the Samaritans were Calvinists.

Unbelievers do not receive this blessing.

Dying for one's sins isn't a blessing. It's NECESSARY so that God's justice be satisfied and His grace CAN BE applied to all.

Rom 11:32 - For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Do you actually beieve this verse refers only to believers?

If you do, you need to explain HOW any unbeliever hasnt been "bound over to disobedience" then.

Please proceed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Look.....read Colossians 3:12.

OK, let's do.
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

The term elect is undoubtedly speaking of the saved....saved gentiles. To you think that the term "elect" there only applies to service or to Jews is preposterous.

I'm curious as to where you are getting your wild ideas about what I believe. I've NEVER EVER said election applies only to Jews. Yes, I do agree that is a preposterous notion.

So, if you have a post where you think I said such a preposterous claim, please share.

"Therefore as the elect of God holy and beloved......"
And THEN there is a call to service as the verse continues.

Right. In every verse where a purpose is linked to God's election, it is ALWAYS to service, never to salvation.

 

[phil36]

, to answer your question, a spiritually dead man becomes alive in Christ THROUGH FAITH

Good, the question remains.. If a person refuses to come to faith then how can he be elected to serve?