Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Jul 24, 2021
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Mans choice and Gods choosing are BOTH taught. Nobody knows where the dividing line is....because there isn't one. Sophistry is vain.
The line in the sand for me is no blasphemy and do not deny the Glory of Jesus.
Calvinism (predestination, damned/elected vessels, Absolute Sovereignty) implies
1) God is the Author of Sin. Blasphemy?
2) God's actions are arbitrary (the breaking of one vessel over another). Psychotic demiurge?
3) Jesus died for the elect not all mankind. Apostle's Creed anyone?
4) The great commission is just for self-glory. Kind of absurd.
5) Prayer is not supplication of a creature to the Creator. Just a divine sticky note.
6) "Servetus was a bad, bad man" - Doug Wilson paraphrased. It is said that anyone who thinks of adultery is committing adultery. What about following a murderer's creed?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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You seem to assume that Christ's death for someone means salvation for that person. That is a very wrong assumption. No where in the Bible do we find the teaching that Christ's death saves people. But feel free to find such a verse and please share with me.

Instead, we find this teaching from Paul in Romans-
4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
5:6 - You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

4:25 says our justification is based on Christ's resurrection, NOT His death.
5:1 links our justification to faith. That's how one is justified or saved.
5:6 I think it's rather obvious that "the ungodly" has to refer to the entire human race.

Unless you want to argue that ONLY the "elect" are ungodly. Is that your argument? Not mine.


Well, how about that! There is a verse about that.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins ( believers), and not only for ours (believers) but also for the sins of the whole world (unbelievers).


That's NOT what John the baptizer said in John 1:29 nor the Samaritans in John 4:42.

Please don;t add your own opinion to Scripture. Neither John the baptizer nor the Samaritans were Calvinists.


Dying for one's sins isn't a blessing. It's NECESSARY so that God's justice be satisfied and His grace CAN BE applied to all.

Rom 11:32 - For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Do you actually beieve this verse refers only to believers?

If you do, you need to explain HOW any unbeliever hasnt been "bound over to disobedience" then.

Please proceed.
We are talking about Christ taking away the sin of every single person in the world vs Christ taking away the sin of His elect, believers.

If Christ took away the sin of every single person in the world, (your "sin barrier") then what is their to condemn anyone over?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


1 John 2:2 is talking about all the believers who will come to Christ. Not unbelievers who won't come to Christ.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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You answer your own question, if only those that believe serve then why would you expect those that refuse faith to serve?
Exactly those called by God will be Justified, so that they can serve.. Just as Paul tell us.. Those he calls he justifies and God chose us to be Holy.. and blameless.. election is not conditioned in anything foreseen in man or anything meritorious.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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1) God is the Author of Sin. Blasphemy?
Yep that would be blasphemy.. Glad we agree 👍


2) God's actions are arbitrary (the breaking of one vessel over another). Psychotic demiurge?
Yeah that would be terrible. Fortunately scripture tells ud that God does everything for His Glory and purpose and that he is absolutely Sovereign!!!

Isaiah 46:9-10: "I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, `My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose."'

Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. Proverbs 19:21

Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began 2 Tim 1:9

He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will Eph 1:5

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Roms 8:28




3) Jesus died for the elect not all mankind. Apostle's Creed anyone?
Jesus atonement achieved what it was set out to do. Save Jews and gentiles.. Thats the world of mankind.. And yes the apostles creed is a good summary of the faith.


4) The great commission is just for self-glory. Kind of absurd.
Yep to think that is absurd.. Sharing the gospel with our fellow man is a great honour for we know that saving faith comes by the outward call of the word and inward working of the spirit..


5) Prayer is not supplication of a creature to the Creator. Just a divine sticky note
Giving supplications at all times, of course is not just supplication.. Praying that God opens the eyes of our fellow man and renew their hearts is a great honour and privilege. It stems from love.


6) "Servetus was a bad, bad man" - Doug Wilson paraphrased. It is said that anyone who thinks of adultery is committing adultery. What about following a murderer's creed

As far as I am aware servitus broke the law of the land, heresy brought the penalty of death in most European countries of the time.. Whether that is right or wrong is irrelevant. That was the law of the land.. Many countries today still have the death penalty.

Regarding following man's creed, the truthfulness of a statement does not rely on the messenger. And we always check whether a statement is true by testing it with scripture. Just like the bereans.. Test everything.

And yes God is absolutely Sovereign.. Amen. Who in their right mind would deny that?
 
Jul 24, 2021
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As far as I am aware servitus broke the law of the land, heresy brought the penalty of death in most European countries of the time.. Whether that is right or wrong is irrelevant. That was the law of the land.. Many countries today still have the death penalty.
The Law is the knowledge of sin. Those that know the law are doubly more guilty than the oblivious when committing sin.

How should a believer behave?
Romans 12 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.”
2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

How did calvin behave?
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Michael-Servetus
He quixotically appeared in Geneva and was recognized, arrested, and tried for heresy from Aug. 14 to Oct. 25, 1553. Calvin played a prominent part in the trial and pressed for execution, although by beheading rather than by fire.

If calvin was just following the times, who is his Elohim?
 
Oct 31, 2015
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As I said you are reading into the text that 'they' are jews.

Paul is pointing out that Jesus is indeed the seed of David and raised from the dead.. what follows? Paul says 'this is my Gospel'. This gospel, the one gospel message goes out to all men. Paul suffers for the gospel for the sake of the elct that they may also be saved like him and Timothy etc etc.



Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. 6 And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. Romans 1:1-7


Do you see the point. Paul is referring to his gospel. and this gospel MMMMm who did Paul mainly take it to?

My point is to show that the elect, also need salvation, meaning that they do not automatically have salvation.


Some try to frame they word elect as meaning “automatically and irreversible saved”.


I a person believes the elect are they only people who are saved, then this verse directly refutes this concept.



Paul suffered much from unbelieving Jews, whom he brought the Gospel to.
It was his custom to go to the Jews first, in every city he was sent to preach.
He would go to the synagogue and try and reason with them because they were familiar with the scriptures and would make good teachers when saved.


Paul recounts some of the things he suffered from the Jews —


From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 2 Corinthians 11:24-25



So when he says for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, it‘s clear to me that he is referring to the unbelieving Jews, who considered him an evil doer, a false teacher and a deceiver of the Jewish people.



Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:8-10


Paul also said this in his passion to see the Jews saved —


I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, Romans 9:1-3



If you don’t recognize that Paul is referring to the elect as Jews in 2 Timothy 2:10 then so be it.


Do you believe the “elect” refers to believing elected for salvation, while the others are elected for damnation?




JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The elect of that passage were faithful Jews.


What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


The Jews were blinded.


Not all of Israel is Israel.



JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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1 Thes 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness,

Jews only?....hardly.
Go back and read what I said.


I didn’t say “the elect were Jews only”.


I said each passage the context is to stand on its own, to see what the author is referring to.


But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14


  • chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel,


Do you believe this means they were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world and are “automatically and irreversible saved”.



No one is saved apart from believing and obeying the Gospel.






JPT
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Go back and read what I said.


I didn’t say “the elect were Jews only”.


I said each passage the context is to stand on its own, to see what the author is referring to.


But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14


  • chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel,


Do you believe this means they were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world and are “automatically and irreversible saved”.



No one is saved apart from believing and obeying the Gospel.






JPT
No one of flesh and blood believes in and of themselves...

Matt 16:17
Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you Simon bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in Heaven".
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
9,158
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The line in the sand for me is no blasphemy and do not deny the Glory of Jesus.
Calvinism (predestination, damned/elected vessels, Absolute Sovereignty) implies
1) God is the Author of Sin. Blasphemy?
2) God's actions are arbitrary (the breaking of one vessel over another). Psychotic demiurge?
3) Jesus died for the elect not all mankind. Apostle's Creed anyone?
4) The great commission is just for self-glory. Kind of absurd.
5) Prayer is not supplication of a creature to the Creator. Just a divine sticky note.
6) "Servetus was a bad, bad man" - Doug Wilson paraphrased. It is said that anyone who thinks of adultery is committing adultery. What about following a murderer's creed?
Too much vain philosophy for me to bother with. The Gospel invitation is to all, yet only the predestinated/elect/chosen believe. All men must choose but God does the choosing.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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We are talking about Christ taking away the sin of every single person in the world vs Christ taking away the sin of His elect, believers.
Then PLEASE show me any verse that actually limits who Christ died for. But I know you can't because of the many verses that say He died for everyone.

If Christ took away the sin of every single person in the world, (your "sin barrier") then what is their to condemn anyone over?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You just answered your question. It is those who have not believed that are condemned. iow, they never received the free gift of eternal life.

1 John 2:2 is talking about all the believers who will come to Christ. Not unbelievers who won't come to Christ.
Nope. John very specifically noted both believers AND unbelievers.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Red words refer to believers as John used the PERSONAL PRONOUN.
Blue words refer to everyone else, or the whole world.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Election is perhaps the most despised Gospel doctrine in all the scripture. It magnifies the Sovereign Mercy of God in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet Jesus who is the only way of Salvation indicates it especially in John's Gospel. Listen to John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The words of Christ here "All that the Father giveth to me" denotes certain ones had been given to Him by His Father !

John 17:2

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

The words of Christ here "as many as thou hast given me" indicate only certain ones should He give eternal life to. Thats election .
 

Ogom

Active member
Aug 22, 2020
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ogom.co
.......

Why are works, important, because they are clear indicators of a true Christian Luke 6:45.


because they are transformative. building us up into Christhood.


no works .....................................no Christ- like person.


those who 'don't like to do the will of (works of) GOD -- will not like / be able to be close to God on the other side. they will just not be that close by -- as they think / feel now -- they will think / feel then.


"For as he hath thought in his soul, so is he," YLT
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
7,795
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The Law is the knowledge of sin. Those that know the law are doubly more guilty than the oblivious when committing sin.

How should a believer behave?
Romans 12 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but leave room for God’s wrath. For it is written: “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.”
2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

How did calvin behave?
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Michael-Servetus
He quixotically appeared in Geneva and was recognized, arrested, and tried for heresy from Aug. 14 to Oct. 25, 1553. Calvin played a prominent part in the trial and pressed for execution, although by beheading rather than by fire.

If calvin was just following the times, who is his Elohim?


Do you abide by the law in your country? Don't forget Servitus escaped France because he was also wanted there for heresy. Thats the way it was then. Heretics where put to death.. Whether that is right or wrong is irrevelevant.

They were in those times in Europe 'intolerant' to heretics. Servitus was a heretic. Condemned by both protestants and Roman Catholics.. Thats history my friend. Like it or not.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,681
366
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Election is perhaps the most despised Gospel doctrine in all the scripture.
Only the Calvinist perversion of the biblical doctrine.

The words of Christ here "as many as thou hast given me" indicate only certain ones should He give eternal life to. Thats election .
No it's not. Jesus gives eternal life to everyone who believes in Him as Savior.

You love to claim what "election" is, but you repeatedly fail to prove your claims from Scripture.
 
Jul 24, 2021
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Too much vain philosophy for me to bother with. The Gospel invitation is to all, yet only the predestinated/elect/chosen believe. All men must choose but God does the choosing.
When you conflate "doctrines" with reason and logic and reject it as "vain", how do you understand the bible? Or rather, how can you understand the bible?
Isaiah 1 18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

How can you even speak plainly upon rejecting logic?
2 Corinthians 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

If discernment is just a hodge podge of opinions, what is the value added?
If your logic is unsound your interpretation of Scriptures will be unsound.