Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
917
381
63
#61
Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​
Click to expand...​
Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​
I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !

Strong’s Definitions
Grace/χάρις cháris, khar'-ece; from G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):—acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

For it is by grace (the divine influence upon the heart…) you have been saved, through faith; and that (faith) is not of yourselves it (faith) is a gift from God.

🤷‍♂️ Pretty straight forward.
 
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
#62
some of gods design will succeed and some will fail.If this is so then,,,Does god know all things? our does he make himself ignorant in such matters
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#63
Strong’s Definitions
Grace/χάρις cháris, khar'-ece; from G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):—acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

For it is by grace (the divine influence upon the heart…) you have been saved, through faith; and that (faith) is not of yourselves it (faith) is a gift from God.

🤷‍♂️ Pretty straight forward.
Everything we have is gift from God, our hand, our body is frm god depend on what we do with the gift.
God gift ability to human to have faith, not animal but some use that ability, some chose not
 

BonnieClaire

Well-known member
Jul 1, 2021
304
290
63
#64
Strong’s Definitions
Grace/χάρις cháris, khar'-ece; from G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):—acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

For it is by grace (the divine influence upon the heart…) you have been saved, through faith; and that (faith) is not of yourselves it (faith) is a gift from God.

🤷‍♂️ Pretty straight forward.
Amen, it's truly straightforward and should discourage any boasting.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. ~KJV
 
Mar 23, 2016
6,468
1,576
113
#65
I mentioned faith in my op.
You eliminated faith in "your" op when you claimed (bold mine) "the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith". :sneaky:

that statement is in complete opposition to Heb 11:6

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 

DannyGirl

New member
Mar 15, 2019
14
0
1
#67
Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​
Click to expand...​
Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​
I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !
I think this needs a slightly different perspective in that “election” is less about one being more beloved child of God then another and more to do with mission. If we understand that all of us are heading to God and that all of Gods intentions for us is to first know him by divine revelation and to love each other, then we know that no matter how great or small our task is it is relevant to getting us to our destination. That some were elected to more prominent tasks to me at least says more about the talents God gave them to do the task and less about their greatness above others.

Second I think we often misunderstand the Old Testament writings, that in the Israelites humanizing God by giving him emotions such as hate or love they were simply explaining their own experiences with God and using it in ways they understood in their limited understanding of him. What do I mean, God in his self revelation, especially during these specific descriptions was in its earliest stages explaining that he was one God and that there was only one God. That as any parent to a child at its earliest stages of development uses the simplest terms and disciplines to shape that understanding. A child under the age of 5 has no moral understanding of implications. Doing something bad and implementing simple disciplines to guide said child are necessary though not explicit. Touch flame ouch, parent that’s bad don’t touch the flame. In a child’s mind that can translate to anger. Child wonders near a cliff and almost throws themselves off a mother will aggressively use her own body even to save said child even if that child will receive some scrapes from the force the mother may need to give to save that child from falling.
what I’m trying to say is that emotional explainatios of perceived emotional reactions we received from situations we encountered with God I believe should be seen from a spiritual child’s perspective in that we were in our spiritual infancy. It’s was largely in Jesus himself that we understood to such extent the real basis for Gods nature. Which he revealed himself. He is Love itself.

So to say elect I believe is irrelevant, that each of us has a path and some might be called to be visual symbols of Christ to a larger group then others is a calling but so they were created. God also gave them the talents to do that path, they also have the responsibility and weight of that responsibility to accept and fulfil that path. Doesn’t mean we are excluded from that same responsibility with our own talents (though many may be significantly smaller). I think ultimately those kind of responsibilities is directly tied to salvation history, yet we are all called to focus on our ever deepening relationship with God as the main goals for our journey of life, and to focus on “who’s the greatest among us” is unnecessary. If God asks us to drink that cup he will give us the grace to do so, but that shouldn’t necessary be our focus.
 
Feb 16, 2017
1,037
285
83
#68
ha ha ha ... yep ... true statement.

Imagine Jesus The Christ on the Cross, looking down at the human race.
He bleeding, He's dying, He's God on the Cross.......and He says....>"just remember, Calvin on lets me save some of you""

Welcome to "pre-destined elect" heresy.
It's straight out of hell.
Its theological vomit. It's ANTI-CROSS theology.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,109
113
50
#69
Imagine Jesus The Christ on the Cross, looking down at the human race.
He bleeding, He's dying, He's God on the Cross.......and He says....>"just remember, Calvin on lets me save some of you""

Welcome to "pre-destined elect" heresy.
It's straight out of hell.
Its theological vomit. It's ANTI-CROSS theology.

Or your view Kidron - Imagine Jesus dying on the cross and looking down on the human race and saying... well I hope this plan works.. its up to man now. Doesn't sound very biblical to me.
 
Feb 16, 2017
1,037
285
83
#70
Or your view Kidron - Imagine Jesus dying on the cross and looking down on the human race and saying... well I hope this plan works.. its up to man now. Doesn't sound very biblical to me.

It is up to man.

God is not in the Robot business and He's not in the cosmic psycho business of causing some to be born with no chance to be a part of his eternal family.

Imagine, if your cult is right. And you are in heaven........and you say......>"Jesus, why isn't my mother and my oldest child in heaven with me".
And Jesus smiles and says....>"yeah, they didnt make the elect list, sorry about that......that's life'""

So, do you begin to see the devilish insanity of your cult's theology, phil36?
You need to learn to SEE beyond the deception, if possible.
Wake up !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
4,924
412
83
#72
I think this needs a slightly different perspective in that “election” is less about one being more beloved child of God then another and more to do with mission. If we understand that all of us are heading to God and that all of Gods intentions for us is to first know him by divine revelation and to love each other, then we know that no matter how great or small our task is it is relevant to getting us to our destination. That some were elected to more prominent tasks to me at least says more about the talents God gave them to do the task and less about their greatness above others.

Second I think we often misunderstand the Old Testament writings, that in the Israelites humanizing God by giving him emotions such as hate or love they were simply explaining their own experiences with God and using it in ways they understood in their limited understanding of him. What do I mean, God in his self revelation, especially during these specific descriptions was in its earliest stages explaining that he was one God and that there was only one God. That as any parent to a child at its earliest stages of development uses the simplest terms and disciplines to shape that understanding. A child under the age of 5 has no moral understanding of implications. Doing something bad and implementing simple disciplines to guide said child are necessary though not explicit. Touch flame ouch, parent that’s bad don’t touch the flame. In a child’s mind that can translate to anger. Child wonders near a cliff and almost throws themselves off a mother will aggressively use her own body even to save said child even if that child will receive some scrapes from the force the mother may need to give to save that child from falling.
what I’m trying to say is that emotional explainatios of perceived emotional reactions we received from situations we encountered with God I believe should be seen from a spiritual child’s perspective in that we were in our spiritual infancy. It’s was largely in Jesus himself that we understood to such extent the real basis for Gods nature. Which he revealed himself. He is Love itself.

So to say elect I believe is irrelevant, that each of us has a path and some might be called to be visual symbols of Christ to a larger group then others is a calling but so they were created. God also gave them the talents to do that path, they also have the responsibility and weight of that responsibility to accept and fulfil that path. Doesn’t mean we are excluded from that same responsibility with our own talents (though many may be significantly smaller). I think ultimately those kind of responsibilities is directly tied to salvation history, yet we are all called to focus on our ever deepening relationship with God as the main goals for our journey of life, and to focus on “who’s the greatest among us” is unnecessary. If God asks us to drink that cup he will give us the grace to do so, but that shouldn’t necessary be our focus.
Election is unto Salvation so its a very important gospel doctrine my friend.
 

DannyGirl

New member
Mar 15, 2019
14
0
1
#73
Election is unto Salvation so its a very important gospel doctrine my friend.
I didn’t mean to imply election doesn’t happen or is bad. Wasn’t my intention I meant election as implied as something associated with Gods like or dislike of a person isn’t true. Ei hated essau, in light of Christ teaching we know God loved him, so I was reiterating how viewing the Old Testament should be seen in a certain light
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
4,924
412
83
#74
Gods Glory is manifested in Unconditional Sovereign Election and Reprobation. Election is a Matter of absolute Mercy Rom 9:11-15

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.11

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

God is not obligated to have mercy on any one of us, He would have been just to punish eternally everyone for their sins against Him.

However He purposed for His own Glory to have Mercy on only some, a remnant of mankind. Moses had asked God to show him His Glory, and the Lord answred Ex 33:18,19

18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

See that, God in responding to Moses said He will proclaim HIS NAME ! And in that proclamation we have the sacred words " and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

The Glory of the Lord is bound up in His Sovereign Prerogative to be merciful and gracious to whomever He pleases understanding that He can withhold the same to whomever He pleases.

Ps 115:3

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
 
Mar 23, 2016
6,468
1,576
113
#75
Or your view Kidron - Imagine Jesus dying on the cross and looking down on the human race and saying... well I hope this plan works.. its up to man now. Doesn't sound very biblical to me.
What Jesus did say as He hung on the cross

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.


Here's something else Jesus said ...

John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




 
Mar 23, 2016
6,468
1,576
113
#76
I didn’t mean to imply election doesn’t happen or is bad. Wasn’t my intention I meant election as implied as something associated with Gods like or dislike of a person isn’t true. Ei hated essau, in light of Christ teaching we know God loved him, so I was reiterating how viewing the Old Testament should be seen in a certain light
What God said before Jacob and Esau were born:

Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her [Rebekah], Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.


When did God say "Esau have I hated"? Not until long after Esau was dead and buried ...

Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau ...



 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,109
113
50
#77
What Jesus did say as He hung on the cross

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.


Here's something else Jesus said ...

John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hi reneweddaybyday,



Yep he certainly said those things and amen for that! That whosoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

The reformed believe that as well.. Look to Jesus, repent and believe.

So I am not sure of your point?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
21,980
11,711
113
#79
Gods Glory is manifested in Unconditional Sovereign Election and Reprobation.
While this is clearly Reformed Theology, it is not what the Bible reveals. God elects no one for either salvation or damnation. Rather Christ commanded that the Gospel to preached in the whole wide world and to "every creature". Which clearly means that salvation is offered to all. But only those who obey the Gospel as saved.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,109
113
50
#80
His point probably was that the word "whosoever" (anyone and everyone) cancels unconditional election. And that is true.

Whosoever (whoever) doesn't mean everyone. It is basically saying any person/persons who. Not everyone. It's basic English.