Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
But go ahead and prove your presumption that God causes people to reject Him, because that is what "hardness of heart" is about.
What do you think these verses mean?

[Mar 4:11-12 KJV]
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
Jesus told His disciples that they were given the mystery of the kingdom of God but unbelievers aren't.

See post #1019 for my explanation of Isa 6:9,10.

fail.
 

Icedaisey

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Jul 19, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
You couldn't if you tried.

But go ahead and prove your presumption that God causes people to reject Him, because that is what "hardness of heart" is about.

take your pick. I'm not picky.


fail.


fail. again.

Without a specific verse, stating "Joshua 11" proves nothing.

Regarding John 12, that is a quote from Isa 6:9,10, which you have noted.

However, this is how that Isa 6:9,10 is quoted by Paul in Acts 28-
25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26 “ ‘Go to this people and say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

You can cherry pick which quote you want, but Paul made it clear that IF IF IF they would see and hear and understand, AND TURN, then God WOULD HEAL THEM.

So, what we see is an order of events. When the people pay attention so that they can understand, and TURN (or repent), THEN God heals them.

We find the exact same order of events in Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Pay particular attention to the bolded words. The same order as how Paul quoted Isa 6:9,10.

fail. again.
No fail. You cannot ignore the passages I quoted in order to bring in one's you prefer and think counter what Christ taught his Disciples.
Even your terminology, "fail", is not indicative of respect for open frank sincere intellectually honest discourse.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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John 3:3
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

What transpired to make it possible for that only way, to enter the kingdom of God and be born again?
John 1. For as many as have recieved him
John 3. As moses lifted up the serpent. So too must the son of man be lifted up that whoever believed.
John 4, If you know who who it was you spoke to you would have asked, and he would have given you rivers of living water
John 5. Hear the word and believe
John 6. Labor for food which endures to eternal life. Eat and drink, Eat the bread from heaven, Eat the flesh and blood. In the end. Believe in him, the words he speaks are spirit and life

You keep talking about the wOrd. I just gave you the word.. Jesus own words.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Probably very wise decision on your part. Mine eventually too.
There are far too many false people here who don't know the Bible at all, yet argue from their perspective of either total ignorance or callous hate for Christians.
If this is your opinion of me, then you have a very big problem with comprehension.

Unless you can actually point out any evidence that I have a "callous hate for Christians", you owe me an apology.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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John 3:3
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

What transpired to make it possible for that only way, to enter the kingdom of God and be born again?
One is born again when one believes in Christ as Savior. That's how they get to enter the kingdom of God.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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No fail. You cannot ignore the passages I quoted in order to bring in one's you prefer and think counter what Christ taught his Disciples.
Calm down. I didn't ignore anything. I explained the verses you quoted.

Even your terminology, "fail", is not indicative of respect for open frank sincere intellectually honest discourse.
After how you described me to your buddy, why in the world would you even use the word "respect"????

Total hypocrisy.

You continue to fail to provide any support for your presumptions.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
One is born again when one believes in Christ as Savior. That's how they get to enter the kingdom of God.
My question was, what preceded that call?
"that call"?? What, specifically, are you referring to? I wasn't talking about a call. I was explaining how to enter the kingdom.
 

Icedaisey

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Jul 19, 2021
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Calm down. I didn't ignore anything. I explained the verses you quoted.
I'm perfectly calm. The breadth of your post shows you are not. And you didn't explain the verses I quoted. You attempted to impart they don't say what Jesus said, by trying to interpolate Paul's writings, out of context, in an effort to say Paul's contradicting their import. He didn't.


After how you described me to your buddy, why in the world would you even use the word "respect"????
I addressed my brother in the first sentence of my remarks and those were with regard to you, because I conceded he was likely better off in his thoughts about no longer engaging you.

Then, in the next sentence after that, I addressed those here whom the body of my observation applied to. I was finished addressing you in the first sentence. However, since you take it personally, and judging, yes, judging, by your behavior now and mannerisms, it appears your inference is reflecting a sense of guilt.

Total hypocrisy.
When you self-identify as the guilty party in my remarks about Devil's and wolves, when my first sentence in those full remarks was about you, while the rest addressed those who fit it's profile, with remarks like, total hypocrisy, you're defining yourself as what I spoke of and to generally. Those whom I was referring to know it because I don't speak to them. Because we're to have nothing to do with darkness save to expose it.

You continue to fail to provide any support for your presumptions.
You think it a "fail" when proper Exegesis counters your intention to draft an argument that denies what Jesus expressly states about the will of God being to call whom he will to Salvation. While those not called are unable to understand, by God's will.
That's presumptuous.

Many are called but few are (the) chosen.
Old and New Testaments testify to the breadth and meaning of that.

Why would you argue it isn't true if you're one of the called God chose?
 

Icedaisey

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Jul 19, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
One is born again when one believes in Christ as Savior. That's how they get to enter the kingdom of God.

"that call"?? What, specifically, are you referring to? I wasn't talking about a call. I was explaining how to enter the kingdom.
Who can enter the Kingdom without the call?
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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DNA is no laughing matter. unless we begin to rise above our (current) DNA -- we can be or become very stuck .
But to be so seriously wrong is akin to being gravely mistaken. I'll have you know that my polynucleotide chains were expertly designed.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Calm down. I didn't ignore anything. I explained the verses you quoted.
I'm perfectly calm.
Not what your post showed.

The breadth of your post shows you are not.
Oh really? Then prove another of your claims by showing any quote that suggests I'm not calm. You're the one calling other names and ascribing "callous hate for Christians" to them. How is that calm?

And you didn't explain the verses I quoted.
Maybe you just didn't understand my explanation.

You attempted to impart they don't say what Jesus said, by trying to interpolate Paul's writings, out of context, in an effort to say Paul's contradicting their import.
This is just your wild presumption acting up again. Nothing I said was unbiblical or twisted Scripture, in spite of your apparently poor comprehension of what I explained.

I addressed my brother in the first sentence of my remarks and those were with regard to you, because I conceded he was likely better off in his thoughts about no longer engaging you.
This is a common tactic when a poster realizes that they cannot refute another poster and cannot answer pertinent questions. They just cop-out and bug out.

Then, in the next sentence after that, I addressed those here whom the body of my observation applied to. I was finished addressing you in the first sentence. However, since you take it personally, and judging, yes, judging, by your behavior now and mannerisms, it appears your inference is reflecting a sense of guilt.
If you had started a new paragraph, and made it clear that what followed was about others, you would have a point. But, as it is, that single paragraph was clear enough.

When you self-identify as the guilty party in my remarks about Devil's and wolves, when my first sentence in those full remarks was about you
Well, once again you fail to comprehend. I never "self-identified" as a guilty party. That is sheer absurdity.

You think it a "fail" when proper Exegesis counters your intention to draft an argument that denies what Jesus expressly states about the will of God being to call whom he will to Salvation.
You clearly don't even understand exegesis.

While those not called are unable to understand, by God's will.
That's presumptuous.
Your claim is presumptuous. Or prove it with Scripture that says that you presumptiously claim.

Many are called but few are (the) chosen.
Please check the context before more presumption.

Why would you argue it isn't true if you're one of the called God chose?
Because what YOU and rogerg claim isn't true. Simple. You still haven't provided any Scripture that says what you believe.

You see, I use the Berean study method when I read the Bible. I "search the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul (or rogerg or icedaisey) say is true.

And I find that what you two say isn't true when searching the Scriptures.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Who can enter the Kingdom without the call?
Your question isn't even legit. Entering the kingdom isn't about "the call". Maybe you should adopt the Berean study method as I have.

You would then understand what "calling" is all about.

Only if there were a verse that supports your claim can I accept what you claim. Otherwise, your claims are opinions, assumptions, or presumptions.

Just the facts ma'am. No hyperbole or hyper-anything here.

If you can't provide Scripture that says what you claim, there is no reason I can think of for accepting your claims.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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There is no way to argue from the context or text that "all" can't mean everyone in humanity, or that it is limited ONLY to some.

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Not just some.

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our (believers) sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world (unbelievers).

These verses REFUTE your limited atonement opinions.

Yes they do, and very clearly. Whether you can see it or not.


This is an absurd conclusion from the fact that Christ died for everyone. Titus 2:11 says that the grace of God that brings (offers) salvaion has appeared to everyone. Bingo.


You are confusing two different concepts or doctrines. It may not be possible to absorb the truth when one does that.


Of course there isn't. There is only truth.

1. Salvation is offered to everyone. Titus 2:11
2. Salvation is by believing in Christ. John 3:16, 5:24 and many more.
3. God only saves those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

These 3 points cannot be refuted since they are Scripture.

What Calvinists do not have are any verses that limit Christ's death to less than everyone.


For this statement to be true, you will HAVE TO quote a verse that clearly limits Christ's death to a subgroup of the human race.

Good luck with that.


OK, prove your claim, if you can.

Quote any verse that clearly shows that Christ's death was only for some, and NOT for all.

Otherwise, you remain as wrong as rain.
Scripture HAS TO agree with scripture.

This is EXTREMELY simple.

If the Lord tasted death for every single person, then every single person is saved. Period. Full stop.

Its fine for you to try and believe that. But it contradicts scripture.



A MUCH better understanding of these scriptures is that the Lord Jesus is the Saviour of HIS PEOPLE. All of His People in the World from the beginning of time to the end of time.


None of those verses you posted refute ANYTHING. All those verses have done is confuse you. Even more than you already were.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Scripture HAS TO agree with scripture.
I completely agree.

This is EXTREMELY simple.

If the Lord tasted death for every single person, then every single person is saved. Period. Full stop.
You may stop with your "full stop". What that would mean is that salvation is by the death of Christ. So, show me ANY verse that actually says that. But save your time. There are NO such verses. What you claim is only your opinion.

Instead, there are verses that tell us clearly the basis for which we are saved, and it isn't Christ's death.

He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Rom 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

What do the red words mean? What do the blue words mean?

Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Do you see the connection between these 2 verses that occur together? Jesus was resurrected for our justification AND we are justified THROUGH faith. Not His death.

You're probably thinking of Rom 5:9 - Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

However, v.1 tells us that our faith is IN His blood. So it isn't on the basis of His death, but OUR faith in His death on our behalf.

v.10 - For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

What do the red words mean? What do the blue words mean?

Its fine for you to try and believe that. But it contradicts scripture.
You're going to have to prove that with Scripture.

A MUCH better understanding of these scriptures is that the Lord Jesus is the Saviour of HIS PEOPLE. All of His People in the World from the beginning of time to the end of time.
Go ahead and show me the verse.

None of those verses you posted refute ANYTHING.
Your claim is empty. You have no evidence that supports your claim. You just don't want to accept the verses that I have quoted.

All those verses have done is confuse you. Even more than you already were.
Nice try. Now, why don't you address "those verses" and show me what they really mean then. If you can.

It's just so easy to make a claim. But it's quite another thing to prove a claim.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Scripture HAS TO agree with scripture.

This is EXTREMELY simple.

If the Lord tasted death for every single person, then every single person is saved. Period. Full stop.

Yeah, I always find it amazing, Grandpa, when people say that Jesus paid for everyone's sins, they do not recognize or accept by that, everyone without exception must be saved. What they miss, and what proves the major flaw in their thinking, is, if all sins were paid, then the sin of not believing was paid too. Thereby, making everyone saved. But, the Bible is abundantly clear, that everyone is not saved. However, for the Elect, it is true, and by which are we saved with the sin of not believing graciously removed. From that, true faith in Christ is given as a gift to them alone.
Hope that makes sense.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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You may stop with your "full stop". What that would mean is that salvation is by the death of Christ. So, show me ANY verse that actually says that. But save your time. There are NO such verses. What you claim is only your opinion.
[2Co 5:14 KJV]
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

[2Co 5:15 KJV] 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[1Pe 2:24 KJV]
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Those work?