Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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What about those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him? These are specifically different than those who died in the tribulation. Things different are not the same. One resurrection...three parts. Those who are resurrected from dying in the tribulation end the first resurrection. They are part of the gleanings.
Well you'll have to pardon me but whereas He does not say "... and receive you unto Myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN ...." neither does He say " ... and receive you unto Myself AND BRING YOU BACK TO EARTH ..."
The natural thing to suppose is that He will take us to the place He has prepared for us.
We do have cross over points
The Father's house of many mansions is the New Jerusalem which comes down from Heaven [and I have always thought] reaches from earth to heaven.
And you obviously do believe in the reign of Christ with His saints here on earth, which I do too. But I believe His saints on earth will be the then converted Jews ... that's why they are being gathered back to their homeland.
Regards
The natural thing to suppose is that He will take us to the place He has prepared for us.
We do have cross over points
The Father's house of many mansions is the New Jerusalem which comes down from Heaven [and I have always thought] reaches from earth to heaven.
And you obviously do believe in the reign of Christ with His saints here on earth, which I do too. But I believe His saints on earth will be the then converted Jews ... that's why they are being gathered back to their homeland.
Regards
The only thing I say about the second resurrection is the bible does not say the wicked YOU say the wicked. The bible says the LIVING and the dead and they are to be judged according to their deeds and according to whether their names are in the book of life or not.
We who are raised in the first resurrection are passed clear over from this judgement.
The saints will be heaven. John saw them there an innumerable crowd all dressed in white with palms.
We who are raised in the first resurrection are passed clear over from this judgement.
The saints will be heaven. John saw them there an innumerable crowd all dressed in white with palms.
1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
The ONLY death past this point AFTER all have been changed or resurrected, WILL BE in the lake of fire. No man will be able to kill another man. DEATH COMES BY GOD at WTJ in THE LAKE OF FIRE.
FreeGrace2 said:
orry, but I don't understand your question. At the resurrection of all believers, they all receive glorified bodies, with which to co-reign with Christ in His kingdom on earth, and assist with ruling with a rod of iron.
Agreed.
There is ONE major difference. Christ did and all believers will receive a glorified body. No unbeliever will.
Sorry to disappoint you, but some discussions I view as simply going "into the woods". There are many views about "last day of the age", and frankly I don't care. What I do care about is the order of things.
So, what is clear is that there will be only 1 resurrection for the saved and 1 for the unsaved, per Acts 24:15. And Rev 20:5 calls the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs the FIRST resurrection. That leaves the single resurrection of the unsaved, which occurs at the GWT judgment which is 1,000 years after the Second Advent.
No one has shown more than 1 resurrection or a "rapture" where the beilevers are taken to heaven.
In this context, it appears that this "last day" is at the Second Advent, because that is WHEN all believers receive their glorified bodies.
It seems obvious to me that the "last day of the age" is different than Jn 6:40. We know that when King Jesus comes back to earth and reigns for 1,000 years, it will be on this present earth. iow, your timex will still work. That's why the Bible gives that period a specific time length. However, after the GWT judgment and ALL unbelievers are cast into the LoF (Rev 20:11-15) ch 20 ends and ch 20 begins with this: Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
Since the present earth will be replaced by a new earth, time ends when the present earth is melted. The new earth presents eternity, where your timex won't work.
I don't. He wasn't resurrected on that day.
I can't. Dead believers go to heaven and are waiting for their glorified bodies (resurrection) "when He comes", that being the Second Advent.
I don't because the Second Advent isn't the "last day of this age". When He comes, He will reign for 1,000 years. Your timex will still work. But, when the present earth melts and replaced by a new earth (Rev 21) your timex won't work. Check it out.
I don't know what your question refers to. Please clarify.
ALL believers will be given glorified bodies when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent. This includes all the dead and all the living. 1 Thess 4 makes that very clear.
Since the Millennial kingdom will consist only of unsaved mortals to rule over, since ALL believers will have a glorified body, it is the unsaved who survive the Tribulation that will be ruled. And the Bible says they will be ruled with a rod of iron. Sounds rather strict, huh.
Do you know why it will be so strict?
orry, but I don't understand your question. At the resurrection of all believers, they all receive glorified bodies, with which to co-reign with Christ in His kingdom on earth, and assist with ruling with a rod of iron.
Agreed.
There is ONE major difference. Christ did and all believers will receive a glorified body. No unbeliever will.
Sorry to disappoint you, but some discussions I view as simply going "into the woods". There are many views about "last day of the age", and frankly I don't care. What I do care about is the order of things.
So, what is clear is that there will be only 1 resurrection for the saved and 1 for the unsaved, per Acts 24:15. And Rev 20:5 calls the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs the FIRST resurrection. That leaves the single resurrection of the unsaved, which occurs at the GWT judgment which is 1,000 years after the Second Advent.
No one has shown more than 1 resurrection or a "rapture" where the beilevers are taken to heaven.
In this context, it appears that this "last day" is at the Second Advent, because that is WHEN all believers receive their glorified bodies.
It seems obvious to me that the "last day of the age" is different than Jn 6:40. We know that when King Jesus comes back to earth and reigns for 1,000 years, it will be on this present earth. iow, your timex will still work. That's why the Bible gives that period a specific time length. However, after the GWT judgment and ALL unbelievers are cast into the LoF (Rev 20:11-15) ch 20 ends and ch 20 begins with this: Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
Since the present earth will be replaced by a new earth, time ends when the present earth is melted. The new earth presents eternity, where your timex won't work.
I don't. He wasn't resurrected on that day.
I can't. Dead believers go to heaven and are waiting for their glorified bodies (resurrection) "when He comes", that being the Second Advent.
I don't because the Second Advent isn't the "last day of this age". When He comes, He will reign for 1,000 years. Your timex will still work. But, when the present earth melts and replaced by a new earth (Rev 21) your timex won't work. Check it out.
I don't know what your question refers to. Please clarify.
ALL believers will be given glorified bodies when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent. This includes all the dead and all the living. 1 Thess 4 makes that very clear.
Since the Millennial kingdom will consist only of unsaved mortals to rule over, since ALL believers will have a glorified body, it is the unsaved who survive the Tribulation that will be ruled. And the Bible says they will be ruled with a rod of iron. Sounds rather strict, huh.
Do you know why it will be so strict?
FreeGrace2 said:
So you cannot apply "firstfruits" to any human other than Jesus Christ.
Apparently you didn't read anything I posted. 1 Cor 15:23 refutes your claim. That chapter is THE chapter on the resurrection of the saved. v.23 proves that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes" a reference to the Second Advent. We know it will be ALL the saved, because of the phrase "those who belong to Him". EVERY believer from Adam on belongs to Him.
You don't have any evidence that those in captivity received glorified bodies. So I disagree with your assessment.
Jesus simply took all the dead saints from Adam forward, living in Paradise, which is in Hades, to heaven above. They won't have their resurrection bodies (glorified) until the Bible says so, and it does in 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Thess 4 and 2 Thess 2:1.
So you cannot apply "firstfruits" to any human other than Jesus Christ.
Apparently you didn't read anything I posted. 1 Cor 15:23 refutes your claim. That chapter is THE chapter on the resurrection of the saved. v.23 proves that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes" a reference to the Second Advent. We know it will be ALL the saved, because of the phrase "those who belong to Him". EVERY believer from Adam on belongs to Him.
You don't have any evidence that those in captivity received glorified bodies. So I disagree with your assessment.
Jesus simply took all the dead saints from Adam forward, living in Paradise, which is in Hades, to heaven above. They won't have their resurrection bodies (glorified) until the Bible says so, and it does in 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Thess 4 and 2 Thess 2:1.
Why would they be? What evidence do you have. In fact, until the Second Advent, EVERY believer who dies since His resurrection goes to heaven. So the Trib martyrs are resurrected WHEN all the rest of believers are resurrected. There is no difference.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
If there were a difference, then this verse is in error. It says EVERY believer will be resurrected "when He comes". All at once.
You need to forget your "gleaning" concepts. 1 Cor 15:23 shows that Jesus was the FIRST to be given a glorified body, and then WHEN He comes, EVERY one else gets theirs.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
If there were a difference, then this verse is in error. It says EVERY believer will be resurrected "when He comes". All at once.
You need to forget your "gleaning" concepts. 1 Cor 15:23 shows that Jesus was the FIRST to be given a glorified body, and then WHEN He comes, EVERY one else gets theirs.
Let's look at what the Bible says.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
I count 2 resurrections. How many do you count?
All believers will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ, or the Bema when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent and sets up His 1,000 year reign.
All the saints who have died until King Jesus returns. There will be some living saints when He returns.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
I count 2 resurrections. How many do you count?
All believers will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ, or the Bema when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent and sets up His 1,000 year reign.
All the saints who have died until King Jesus returns. There will be some living saints when He returns.
Yep, I know this passage well. However, it does not say flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, but the kingdom of God. There is a difference between the two. One is spiritual, and the other physical. Both will be realized at the second coming.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Man's blood is corrupt. This corruptness was passed down from Adam. Our bodies need a change, without blood.
There will be some of those, I believe OT saints and future Jewish saints in the tribulation, that will not get glorified bodies but will have to eat from the tree of life and live in eternity. Just something to think about.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Man's blood is corrupt. This corruptness was passed down from Adam. Our bodies need a change, without blood.
There will be some of those, I believe OT saints and future Jewish saints in the tribulation, that will not get glorified bodies but will have to eat from the tree of life and live in eternity. Just something to think about.
Sad. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". That means ALL believers will be at the Second Advent.
Do you have any verses (evidence) for separate resurrections? No. Every verse about the resurrection of the saved and unsaved speaks in the singular. Just one for each.
Regardless of status, 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit your view.
No, Scripture HAS PLACED everyone together by the phrase "those who belong to Him".
Given your view then, please defend your apparent view that OT believers somehow DON'T 'belong to Him'.
This should be interesting.
Do you have any verses (evidence) for separate resurrections? No. Every verse about the resurrection of the saved and unsaved speaks in the singular. Just one for each.
Regardless of status, 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit your view.
No, Scripture HAS PLACED everyone together by the phrase "those who belong to Him".
Given your view then, please defend your apparent view that OT believers somehow DON'T 'belong to Him'.
This should be interesting.
This is a common assumption only. Since God's wrath isn't limited to unbelievers, it should be obvious to everyone (but isn't) that during the Tribulation before the mark is applied, God can easily call home those believers who WOULD take the mark.
Do you believe that God is omniscient and already knows which believers would fold and take the mark when offered? Of course.
Do you believe God is able to call home believers as a result of discipline? You'd better.
1 Cor 11:30 shows that. As does a host of verses.
So no one has to worry about the mark of the beast.
btw, IF God did allow any believer to take the mark, He would be contradicting Himself.
otoh, His Word says those who take the mark will end up in the LoF.
on the other hand, His Word guarantees eternal life to the believer (John 10:28).
So allowing any believer to take the mark would create a conflict and contradiction.
God won't allow that to happen. Instead, God will glean the unfaithful and disobedient from the earth before the mark will be available.
Do you believe that God is omniscient and already knows which believers would fold and take the mark when offered? Of course.
Do you believe God is able to call home believers as a result of discipline? You'd better.
1 Cor 11:30 shows that. As does a host of verses.
So no one has to worry about the mark of the beast.
btw, IF God did allow any believer to take the mark, He would be contradicting Himself.
otoh, His Word says those who take the mark will end up in the LoF.
on the other hand, His Word guarantees eternal life to the believer (John 10:28).
So allowing any believer to take the mark would create a conflict and contradiction.
God won't allow that to happen. Instead, God will glean the unfaithful and disobedient from the earth before the mark will be available.
FreeGrace2 said:
Sad. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". That means ALL believers will be at the Second Advent.
Do you have any verses (evidence) for separate resurrections? No. Every verse about the resurrection of the saved and unsaved speaks in the singular. Just one for each.
This is just really a stretch. I asked for evidence from Scripture and you give me your presumptions.
You're just arguing AGAINST the verses I provided that SAY there is a singular resurrerction. And you haven't proven otherwise from Scripture. Your presumptions certainly don't count. Only Scripture does.
This is IRRELEVANT to your presumptions.
You are arguing that OT believers DON'T BELONG to Christ. That's preposterous.
Another thing: your hangup appears to be regarding the "body of Christ". Where does the Bible specifically separate out resurrection for the "Body of Christ" and the OT saints? Nowhere.
You don't have a case.
Sad. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". That means ALL believers will be at the Second Advent.
Do you have any verses (evidence) for separate resurrections? No. Every verse about the resurrection of the saved and unsaved speaks in the singular. Just one for each.
This is just really a stretch. I asked for evidence from Scripture and you give me your presumptions.
You're just arguing AGAINST the verses I provided that SAY there is a singular resurrerction. And you haven't proven otherwise from Scripture. Your presumptions certainly don't count. Only Scripture does.
This is IRRELEVANT to your presumptions.
You are arguing that OT believers DON'T BELONG to Christ. That's preposterous.
Another thing: your hangup appears to be regarding the "body of Christ". Where does the Bible specifically separate out resurrection for the "Body of Christ" and the OT saints? Nowhere.
You don't have a case.
FreeGrace2 said:
This is a common assumption only. Since God's wrath isn't limited to unbelievers, it should be obvious to everyone (but isn't) that during the Tribulation before the mark is applied, God can easily call home those believers who WOULD take the mark.
Do you believe that God is omniscient and already knows which believers would fold and take the mark when offered? Of course.
Do you believe God is able to call home believers as a result of discipline? You'd better.
First, you didn't answer either of my questions, and then you give me 2 questions??? How does that work? Why can't you at least answer my questions?
Second, NO and NO. Your view is quite wrong. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. If salvation was EVER by works, then man would be saving himself. Which is pure nonsense.
Paul's own testimony as an expert in the Law and OT (Pharisee) was this:
Acts 24:14 - However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
Acts 26:22 - But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen
So please don't tell me that salvation was by works in the OT, or even in the Tribulation.
Paul, who admitted that he totally agreed with Moses, the Law and the prophets, also wrote Eph 2:8,9. Think about it.
Says nothing about working for your salvation.
This is a common assumption only. Since God's wrath isn't limited to unbelievers, it should be obvious to everyone (but isn't) that during the Tribulation before the mark is applied, God can easily call home those believers who WOULD take the mark.
Do you believe that God is omniscient and already knows which believers would fold and take the mark when offered? Of course.
Do you believe God is able to call home believers as a result of discipline? You'd better.
First, you didn't answer either of my questions, and then you give me 2 questions??? How does that work? Why can't you at least answer my questions?
Second, NO and NO. Your view is quite wrong. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. If salvation was EVER by works, then man would be saving himself. Which is pure nonsense.
Paul's own testimony as an expert in the Law and OT (Pharisee) was this:
Acts 24:14 - However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
Acts 26:22 - But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen
So please don't tell me that salvation was by works in the OT, or even in the Tribulation.
Paul, who admitted that he totally agreed with Moses, the Law and the prophets, also wrote Eph 2:8,9. Think about it.
Says nothing about working for your salvation.
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.