Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

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Tim416

Guest
And through the Lord Jesus Christ we are free from Condemnation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Through the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus we become conscious of Righteousness
Agreed. The believer is freed from condemnation.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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The moral law did not get abolished. The penalty for transgression of it was paid by Christ for born again believers. So there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. God will not abolish the fact he does not want you to have any gods before him. Neither will he abolish the fact he does not want you to steal, lie, commit adultery, murder etc. By that law being placed in your heart, you in your heart want to follow it. Born again believers, in their hearts do not want to steal, lie, murder, commit adultery etc. Is it truly legalism not to want to do those things? The system of law, as we all understand law to be got abolished at Calvary, for if you break the law you incur the penalty for doing so. Jesus died to pay the penalty of our transgression, he did not die to abolish what is holy, just and good. You do not obey the law in your heart by looking to it and striving to obey it. You look to Christ, trust in the Holy Spirit to continually sanctify you,/bring you to live an ever holier life. The more you do that, the more the fruits of the Spirit grow in your life. And that fruit will not bring you into conflict with the law in your heart. For against that fruit there is no law
You are confusing things here.

The penalty for transgression was paid by Christ but the "moral" law is still to be worked at because that is what Christ wants?

Negative ghost rider.

You get one or the other. And you have to choose. Salvation by your work at the law or Salvation by Christs Work at the law.


But then later you say that you don't obey the "law in your heart" by looking to it and striving to obey it. You look to Christ.

The law in our heart is NOT the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are what we don't look to to strive to obey it. The Law in our hearts is what the Holy Spirit Writes there, which is Life and Righteousness.


Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain
 
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Tim416

Guest
You are confusing things here.

The penalty for transgression was paid by Christ but the "moral" law is still to be worked at because that is what Christ wants?

Negative ghost rider.

You get one or the other. And you have to choose. Salvation by your work at the law or Salvation by Christs Work at the law.


But then later you say that you don't obey the "law in your heart" by looking to it and striving to obey it. You look to Christ.

The law in our heart is NOT the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are what we don't look to to strive to obey it. The Law in our hearts is what the Holy Spirit Writes there, which is Life and Righteousness.


Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain
There is no salvation by works of the law if the law cannot condemn you/you have no righteousness of obeying it. The penalty for transgression is required for condemnation. Remove that and condemnation is removed.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Rom3:31

Gal2:21 is another great verse. I can only repeat. The believer has no righteousness of obeying law. Their righteousness, from first to last is faith in Christ.
 
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Tim416

Guest
How can you be conscious of sin if the entire law got abolished?
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

If a believer, stole, committed adultery, took the Lords name in vain, they would be conscious they sinned by doing so. And you can only be conscious of sin through the law.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Faith? So faith would tell you how well you are obeying the first command? How to not covet? How to not commit sexual sin, and every possible ways in which you would break those commands?

I am not buying it, the pharisee thought he obeyed and jesus proved them wrong, why could they not obey the commands? Why was it called a yoke of bondage, Why is it called the ministry of death, why did oaul says it brings about wrath, that whoever tried to live by it are ind bted to keep the whole law?
Just woke up but got to go places so I've only got a few minutes spare.
Many of the questions you asked above have been explained by understanding that there are more than one set of laws being preached in those days.
We can obey the law, no one can with a fallen nature.
Rom 8:7
the carnal mind isn't subject to the law of God. But if we choose to walk in the Spirit which is possible by faith we can obey.
Rom 8:3-4
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Jesus obeyed the law and He was not a legalist.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

BY FAITH WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.
 
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Tim416

Guest
If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

Some need to Pause and reflect when they quote the letter, and ask themselves. Am I really without sin? Honest reflection should then lead to a less literalistic understanding of the letter quoted
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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In the same that we are justified by faith. We are sanctified (changed, renewed, transformed) by faith.
2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

Some need to Pause and reflect when they quote the letter, and ask themselves. Am I really without sin? Honest reflection should then lead to a less literalistic understanding of the letter quoted
The more i come to Christ the more sinful i see myself.
The more i rely on His grace but that doesn't mean i make void the law.
 
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Tim416

Guest
Anyone who professes to fully obey the ten commandments, does not understand what that law demands. The Apostle Paul did understand, and therefore, told born again Christians who had the Holy Spirit those commands were the letter that kills, the ministration of death and condemnation. It bewilders me how anyone can convince themselves they fully obey that law.
 
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Tim416

Guest
The more i come to Christ the more sinful i see myself.
The more i rely on His grace but that doesn't mean i make void the law.
Christians do not, or should not make void the law written in their minds and placed on their hearts. Actually, it is impossible to ignore that law
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Christians do not, or should not make void the law written in their minds and placed on their hearts. Actually, it is impossible to ignore that law
When i first became a christian the Holy Spirit didn't convict me of some of the things i am convicted of today. Like a race or growing in grace i've slowly come closer and closer to the perfect standard of Jesus. I have a long way to go but the standard is Jesus. As i study the word the Spirit reveals new things for me to improve my walk. If i do not spend time with God or the study of Gods word i will not grow, because new truths will not be revealed to me. Sanctification.
If the Sabbath is a new conviction that you never knew about last month, than you can ignore this conviction and find ways to justify no change. The Battle between self and the Spirit is still happening, and we need to die to self daily. When the Spirit convicts us we can choose to die to self and follow the Spirit or reject the Spirit and follow our selfish hearts.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Christians do not, or should not make void the law written in their minds and placed on their hearts. Actually, it is impossible to ignore that law
It doesn't matter how loud someone knocks on your door, we can still choose to ignore it.
 
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Tim416

Guest
When i first became a christian the Holy Spirit didn't convict me of some of the things i am convicted of today. Like a race or growing in grace i've slowly come closer and closer to the perfect standard of Jesus. I have a long way to go but the standard is Jesus. As i study the word the Spirit reveals new things for me to improve my walk. If i do not spend time with God or the study of Gods word i will not grow, because new truths will not be revealed to me. Sanctification.
If the Sabbath is a new conviction that you never knew about last month, than you can ignore this conviction and find ways to justify no change. The Battle between self and the Spirit is still happening, and we need to die to self daily. When the Spirit convicts us we can choose to die to self and follow the Spirit or reject the Spirit and follow our selfish hearts.


When I became a Christian at a young age, the first thing I noticed that had changed in me was, I became aware of my imperfections/sin before God in a very real and deep way. At this point, I had not much read the bible, for I was only young. However, during sermons I would read my bible(I got bored then listening to them) And inevitably I read of the ten commandments. I wondered why thou shalt not covet was one of them. I could understand the other nine being important, but not the tenth, it seemed so trivial to me. For at that time I rationalised it was referring solely to material goods, such as do not covet your neighbours nice car, or his house. And to my mind, to wish you had things like that wasn’t such a big deal, for we all think like that at times don’t we. However, once I reached puberty I immediately knew impure thoughts were sin, no one had to explain that to me. I was breaking the tenth commandment that was written in my mind and placed on my heart. Though, from reading the letter written in ink, I still thought that commandment only referred to coveting material goods.

Why do I mention this? Because I was acutely aware of my sin through the law placed within me. I could not hide from it, whether it was failure to love others as I should, getting angry at people, impurities in the mind or anything else that barred me from sinless perfection. But I was never once convicted I must observe a set Saturday Sabbath. It would seem very strange to me, that the work of the law written in my mind and placed on my heart did its job, my sin was revealed to me, but, if I sinned by not observing a Saturday Sabbath it could not do its job concerning that.

There is no problem whatsoever in anyone wanting to observe a Saturday Sabbath, in fact, if they believe they should, for them it is something they should do, but they do not have the right to insist everyone else must. The conviction of sin should come from within, not through reading the letter written in ink, if you have the full covenant Christ died to usher in
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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When I became a Christian at a young age, the first thing I noticed that had changed in me was, I became aware of my imperfections/sin before God in a very real and deep way. At this point, I had not much read the bible, for I was only young. However, during sermons I would read my bible(I got bored then listening to them) And inevitably I read of the ten commandments. I wondered why thou shalt not covet was one of them. I could understand the other nine being important, but not the tenth, it seemed so trivial to me. For at that time I rationalised it was referring solely to material goods, such as do not covet your neighbours nice car, or his house. And to my mind, to wish you had things like that wasn’t such a big deal, for we all think like that at times don’t we. However, once I reached puberty I immediately knew impure thoughts were sin, no one had to explain that to me. I was breaking the tenth commandment that was written in my mind and placed on my heart. Though, from reading the letter written in ink, I still thought that commandment only referred to coveting material goods.

Why do I mention this? Because I was acutely aware of my sin through the law placed within me. I could not hide from it, whether it was failure to love others as I should, getting angry at people, impurities in the mind or anything else that barred me from sinless perfection. But I was never once convicted I must observe a set Saturday Sabbath. It would seem very strange to me, that the work of the law written in my mind and placed on my heart did its job, my sin was revealed to me, but, if I sinned by not observing a Saturday Sabbath it could not do its job concerning that.

There is no problem whatsoever in anyone wanting to observe a Saturday Sabbath, in fact, if they believe they should, for them it is something they should do, but they do not have the right to insist everyone else must. The conviction of sin should come from within, not through reading the letter written in ink, if you have the full covenant Christ died to usher in
You are saying much the same as me, in regard to the change with time, your growing as the spirit reveals things to you. As you learn more or understand better, The Spirit can convict you deeper.

In the dark ages people couldn't access the word of God and where kept in darkness, People couldn't learn about some of the simple truth we are able to understand today, like righteousness by Faith. God winks at their ignorance and will judge accordingly.
 
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Tim416

Guest
You are saying much the same as me, in regard to the change with time, your growing as the spirit reveals things to you. As you learn more or understand better, The Spirit can convict you deeper.

In the dark ages people couldn't access the word of God and where kept in darkness, People couldn't learn about some of the simple truth we are able to understand today, like righteousness by Faith. God winks at their ignorance and will judge accordingly.
Oh I grew up in a church that prided itself it stood fully on the inerrant word of God, sola scripture if you like. The bible was infallible and everything written in it must be accepted. The Holy Spirit was relentlessly stressed, as were the gifts of the Spirit, and righteous living was preached to a high degree, based on the letter of what was written. I grew up believing Jesus died for my past sins before I got saved, but then, I had to obey the law(in reality) to remain saved. For how could anyone be a Christian if they lived a sinfull life? God hates sin, and believers are called to live a pure and holy life for him. The problem was, no matter how hard I tried I could not live that completely pure and holy life for God, no matter how hard I tried. I kept committing sin, it would never fully go away. For I could not hide from the law placed within me.
In my life I have heard many stress: you must obey the Ten Commandments, and the people I have personally known who much state this, themselves have truly shocked me, by the sin they commit, apparently without conviction they are sinning by doing so. There conviction of sin is it seems far less than mine. Which is probably why they tell you, if you want to remain in a saved state you must obey the TC
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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As Christians we are not under the Law of Moses or under the so called Law of Grace. We are under the Law of Christ, the New Covenant
the whole of the OT is preparation for the New Covenant. That was the Law that Paul was under and what he taught.
 
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Tim416

Guest
You are saying much the same as me, in regard to the change with time, your growing as the spirit reveals things to you. As you learn more or understand better, The Spirit can convict you deeper.

In the dark ages people couldn't access the word of God and where kept in darkness, People couldn't learn about some of the simple truth we are able to understand today, like righteousness by Faith. God winks at their ignorance and will judge accordingly.
I do not wish to offend you, but I will be honest. A few years ago someone asked me to go to an sda church with them on Saturdays. Being raised in an exclusive church, I wanted to be inclusive, so I went. All I knew of the sda at that time was they went to church on Saturdays. I figured it was no big deal the difference between them and me, for Paul wrote of ‘’disputable matters;’’ in rom 14, and there was a verse on this subject in that chapter. So along I went with an open mind, and for the first couple of weeks heartily joined in the service. How can I explain this to you, for I honestly do not want to be offensive. The first thing that deeply troubled me were people were going around taking the Lords name in vain in conversation, and laughing as they did so, apparently unaware they were transgressing one of the commandments they insisted must be followed. I did not recognise that kind of Christianity to be honest, for that is something I could never do, and I have never seen such a thing in any other church denomination I have personally been to. And as I sat in a circle in one of their Sabbath schools, I couldn’t help wondering: Where is the Holy Spirit? The people were really nice and friendly, but everything was just quoting the selective letter, their seemed little understanding beyond that. And all I will say is this. The people who were most insistent you must obey the Ten Commandments, that I got to personally know, were living, outside of the church lives that if I lived like that would block me from a real and personal relationship with my saviour, They had nowhere near the conviction of sin I had. In many ways, it reminded me of the church of my youth(non sda)
You can look to the letter of the written code to know what sin is, but there is nowhere near as much conviction of sin by doing that, as there is the conviction that comes from within
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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By Faith we establish the law.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

There are 2 extremes and Satan doesn't mind if you are going to either side.
Legalism - like the Pharisees that made the keeping of the law there salvation.
law keeping and no faith
The other extreme is to do away with the law - Where you say there is no Law because keeping the law is works and our works count for nothing. You teach that the law is void because of grace or faith.
Faith without law keeping

Mat_23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (One of the Ten Commandments)

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Satan doesn't mind which way you go as long as your not balanced about it.
By Faith we establish the law.
 
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Tim416

Guest
Rom 3:31 is a great verse. Paul spent the preceeding ten verses telling his readers they had no righteousness of obeying the law and were justified apart from works. What would some of his readers have thought reading that? ''If we are saved apart from obeying the law we can live as we like for our righteousness is apart from obeying the law. Hence rom3:31. But did Paul mean in that verse we would perfectly obey the letter of the ten commandments he said was the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation? You must read the bible as one cohesive whole, and discern beyond the letter itself, otherwise you have no true understanding of the message of scripture.
Rom7:7&8 is great truth also. Paul wrote that as part of his explanation of why he had to die to righteousness of obeying the law. But if you preach, that obedience to the law is required to remain in a saved state, either to prove you love Jesus, and are willing to bey him, or because sin bars you from heaven, you are in reality preaching righteousness of obeying the law. For anyone who believes you must then base their Christianity on whether they obey the law or not. Justification hinges on observing the law
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Fallacy: burden of proof reversal.

If you can't (or won't) defend your definitions of scriptural words with references from Scripture, further assertions based on those definitions are irrelevant.
Is salvation based on an imputed righteousness, an imparted righteousness, or a combination of both?

Now, Christ's righteousness cannot be imparted to a sinner, because the merit of a work cannot be imparted or infused. It can only be imputed, or legally charged to the sinner. Spiritual life, saving faith, repentance, love, and humility cannot be imputed to a sinner because a moral quality of character cannot be imputed, or charged to their account. It can only be imparted.

Imputed righteousness
Imputed righteousness is a concept in Christian theology that proposes that the "righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers, that is, treated as if it were theirs through faith. It is because of this perfect righteousness, that God accepts humans. This acceptance is also referred to as justification. Thus this doctrine is practically synonymous with justification by faith.
The righteousness of Jesus credited to the Christian, enables the Christian to be justified.
God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world to himself not counting men’s sins against them. This imputation is twofold: we receive Christ’s holiness and forgiveness and Christ takes upon himself our guilt and judgement.
ie.... Justification.

Imparted righteousness,
This what God does in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit after justification, working in the Christian to enable and empower the process of sanctification. Imparted righteousness is Christ releasing within us his very life so that moment-by-moment we may experience his presence enabling us to make righteous choices. It is the process whereby the believer partakes by faith the righteous nature given to us by Christ. We can do nothing good ourselves.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.