Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#101
#101
TMS said:
I'll need time to find the verses but it is by faith, and love for God that we obey.
We can't do anything good ourselves but with Christs in us we can do all things. By the Spirit of God we are empowered to obey and overcome.
Click to expand...
Faith? So faith would tell you how well you are obeying the first command? How to not covet? How to not commit sexual sin, and every possible ways in which you would break those commands?

I am not buying it, the pharisee thought he obeyed and jesus proved them wrong, why could they not obey the commands? Why was it called a yoke of bondage, Why is it called the ministry of death, why did oaul says it brings about wrath, that whoever tried to live by it are ind bted to keep the whole law?
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#102
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,318
113
Australia
#102
Tim416 said:
If the law is in your heart and mind, you must know what that law is, for you cannot hide from it. So you must be conscious of sin if you transgress it. It is not a written down law, written in ink anymore for the believer, but a law written in the mind and placed on the heart by the Spirit of the living God:
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 2Cor3:3
Click to expand...
Some people harden their hearts to the voice of God.
People choose to not hear so they don't need to change their habits and ignore conviction because they don't like to give it up.

2 Tim 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#104
#104
TMS said:
Some people harden their hearts to the voice of God.
People choose to not hear so they don't need to change their habits and ignore conviction because they don't like to give it up.

2 Tim 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables
Click to expand...
The Holy Spirit is infallible. As you yourself said the law is put in the heart by God so you may know what sin is. How did you come to believe you must observe a set Saturday sabbath? By looking to the letter of law written in ink. That is not where the law is for the believer!
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#105
Jun 30, 2015
25,587
13,857
113
#105
TMS said:
Look it up in any good encyclopedia.
Click to expand...
Fallacy: burden of proof reversal.

If you can't (or won't) defend your definitions of scriptural words with references from Scripture, further assertions based on those definitions are irrelevant.
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#106
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,318
113
Australia
#106
eternally-gratefull said:
Faith? So faith would tell you how well you are obeying the first command? How to not covet? How to not commit sexual sin, and every possible ways in which you would break those commands?

I am not buying it, the pharisee thought he obeyed and jesus proved them wrong, why could they not obey the commands? Why was it called a yoke of bondage, Why is it called the ministry of death, why did oaul says it brings about wrath, that whoever tried to live by it are ind bted to keep the whole law?
Click to expand...
Read the whole chapter
Heb 11:7,8 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Works and obedience that were a result of faith.
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#107
Jan 18, 2011
12,388
6,732
113
#107
TMS said:
Know to do good?
This comes from studying the word and the moving of the Holy Spirit. Not just one sermon from Jesus, or we wouldn't need the rest of the bible. When Jesus was tempted He quoted scripture.
Matt 5:27,28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

By studying the scriptures i come to know what is right and wrong for me.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
As i have studied i have been convicted to obey the Sabbath because it is right.
Not to be saved but because it is the good thing to do.
That means it is sin for me to not obey.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Christ is my righteousness not the law. Christ perfectly obeyed the law because He followed the Spirits leading. I want to follow Jesus.
Click to expand...
so, the Sermon on the mount is NOT the ultimate standard for the Christ followers ?

o.k. then, what ever.

and , as usual, all you ellen white disciples use a logical fallacy.

" I do not keep the Sabbath to be saved, I do so because it is a good thing to do "

" it would be a sin to not obey'

thereby making Sabbath keeping required to be saved.

if you can't see this is double speak propaganda, I do not what to say...…..
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#108
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,318
113
Australia
#108
Dino246 said:
Fallacy: burden of proof reversal.

If you can't (or won't) defend your definitions of scriptural words with references from Scripture, further assertions based on those definitions are irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Sanctification is throughout the word in many places.
So is justification.
Why do you want me to prove the definition of these words. Use sanctification if you don't like imparted righteousness.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#109
Jun 30, 2015
25,587
13,857
113
#109
TMS said:
Sanctification is throughout the word in many places.
So is justification.
Why do you want me to prove the definition of these words. Use sanctification if you don't like imparted righteousness.
Click to expand...
I want you to support your definitions, not prove them. My liking or disliking them isn't the issue.
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#110
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,318
113
Australia
#110
gb9 said:
so, the Sermon on the mount is NOT the ultimate standard for the Christ followers ?

o.k. then, what ever.

and , as usual, all you ellen white disciples use a logical fallacy.

" I do not keep the Sabbath to be saved, I do so because it is a good thing to do "

" it would be a sin to not obey'

thereby making Sabbath keeping required to be saved.

if you can't see this is double speak propaganda, I do not what to say...…..
Click to expand...
Would it be sin for u to murder.
If yes not murdering is a salvational requirement for you.
I'm only swooping sabbath keeping with not murdering.
If i want to obey out of love then please don't say I'm doing it to be saved. I don't want to disobey the one i love.
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#111
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,318
113
Australia
#111
Dino246 said:
I want you to support your definitions, not prove them. My liking or disliking them isn't the issue.
Click to expand...
I did a post a few months ago in another thread. I'd like to but I'm falling asleep, it's 2am here in Australia.
Look it up, search and you will find.

Good night....zzzzz
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#112
#112
TMS said:
Read the whole chapter
Heb 11:7,8 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Works and obedience that were a result of faith.
Click to expand...
I do not see the law in that passage, i asked scifically about the law. Can you please reread my post and answer
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#113
#113
TMS said:
Would it be sin for u to murder.
If yes not murdering is a salvational requirement for you.
I'm only swooping sabbath keeping with not murdering.
If i want to obey out of love then please don't say I'm doing it to be saved. I don't want to disobey the one i love.
Click to expand...
If not murdering is a requirment no one will make it to heaven, because as james said, if we break one command we ar guilty of all.
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#114
Jan 18, 2011
12,388
6,732
113
#114
TMS said:
Would it be sin for u to murder.
If yes not murdering is a salvational requirement for you.
I'm only swooping sabbath keeping with not murdering.
If i want to obey out of love then please don't say I'm doing it to be saved. I don't want to disobey the one i love.
Click to expand...
but you are disobeying the One you love.

God the Father said of the Son " hear Him " . ( mount of transfiguration ).

God said this of the Son in the presence of Moses ( the law ) and Elijah ( the Prophets ).

this experience elevates and separates the Words in Red over all other Scripture, including the Mosaic Law.

also, in Leviticus 26, after God had just gave Moses a ton of laws and commands, God referred to " the Covenant with your Fathers ".

so, unless you can trace your ancestry back to those who crossed the red sea, then that Covenant was not made with you.

and what did that Covenant contain? the Law, the Sabbath.

these are just 2 examples of Christ followers NOT being under the Law. if you need more proof, let me know.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#115
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#115
Tim416 said:
The Holy Spirit is infallible. As you yourself said the law is put in the heart by God so you may know what sin is. How did you come to believe you must observe a set Saturday sabbath? By looking to the letter of law written in ink. That is not where the law is for the believer!
Click to expand...
That is a misconception set forth by legalists and judaizers and is NOT true.

The 10 commandments shows you sin and condemnation and death.

This is NOT what is placed in the believers Heart by God. What IS placed in the Heart by God is His Law. Not commandments commanding carnal men to obey a spiritual law. Gods Actual Law. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Goodness...

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#116
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#116
Absolutely said:
I dont think you know what i said.
I understand saved by grace.
I understand those born again don't normally break the law.
What laws do you break as a born again believer?
Try thinking out of the law box.
I am not talking about keeping the law as a concious effort,just pointing out no christian goes around breaking the law.

Hope that wasn't too emotional for you, rolleyes
Click to expand...
If we are born again believers who are dead to the law what happens when we look away from Christ and look back to the law to "Check" to see if we are breaking laws?

I totally agree with you, btw, that born again Christians aren't breaking any laws. They actually establish the spiritual law. But carnal people don't understand the spiritual law. They only understand carnal commandments.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#117
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#117
TMS said:
Would it be sin for u to murder.
If yes not murdering is a salvational requirement for you.
I'm only swooping sabbath keeping with not murdering.
If i want to obey out of love then please don't say I'm doing it to be saved. I don't want to disobey the one i love.
Click to expand...
We don't get to vote on what are sins and what aren't.

If you place yourself under one law then you are on the hook for all of them. The Lord Jesus Christ wasn't sacrificed so that you wouldn't have to sacrifice bulls and goats anymore. The Lord Jesus Christ came and did what He did so that those who believe in HIM would no longer have to live under the Condemnation and Death of the 10 Commandments.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#118
#118
Grandpa said:
That is a misconception set forth by legalists and judaizers and is NOT true.

The 10 commandments shows you sin and condemnation and death.

This is NOT what is placed in the believers Heart by God. What IS placed in the Heart by God is His Law. Not commandments commanding carnal men to obey a spiritual law. Gods Actual Law. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Goodness...

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Click to expand...
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

If a believer stole something, would they be convicted they sinned because they committed theft?
If a believer took the Lords name in vain, would they be conscious they sinned by doing so?
If a believer committed adultery, would they be conscious they sinned because they committed the act of adultery?

Through the law we become conscious of sin

Ezekiel 36:26&27 plus Gal5:22&23 are great verses.
Jesus died for all our sins, past, present and future, the believer is not under law but under grace. We have a sole righteousness of faith in Christ, from first to last, the whole of our Christian lives. I didn't know someone who believed that could be a legalist!
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#119
#119
The moral law did not get abolished. The penalty for transgression of it was paid by Christ for born again believers. So there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. God will not abolish the fact he does not want you to have any gods before him. Neither will he abolish the fact he does not want you to steal, lie, commit adultery, murder etc. By that law being placed in your heart, you in your heart want to follow it. Born again believers, in their hearts do not want to steal, lie, murder, commit adultery etc. Is it truly legalism not to want to do those things? The system of law, as we all understand law to be got abolished at Calvary, for if you break the law you incur the penalty for doing so. Jesus died to pay the penalty of our transgression, he did not die to abolish what is holy, just and good. You do not obey the law in your heart by looking to it and striving to obey it. You look to Christ, trust in the Holy Spirit to continually sanctify you,/bring you to live an ever holier life. The more you do that, the more the fruits of the Spirit grow in your life. And that fruit will not bring you into conflict with the law in your heart. For against that fruit there is no law
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#120
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#120
Tim416 said:
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

If a believer stole something, would they be convicted they sinned because they committed theft?
If a believer took the Lords name in vain, would they be conscious they sinned by doing so?
If a believer committed adultery, would they be conscious they sinned because they committed the act of adultery?

Through the law we become conscious of sin

Ezekiel 36:26&27 plus Gal5:22&23 are great verses.
Jesus died for all our sins, past, present and future, the believer is not under law but under grace. We have a sole righteousness of faith in Christ, from first to last, the whole of our Christian lives. I didn't know someone who believed that could be a legalist!
Click to expand...
And through the Lord Jesus Christ we are free from Condemnation.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Through the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus we become conscious of Righteousness
 
You must log in or register to reply here.