Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

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TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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Rom 3:31 is a great verse. Paul spent the preceeding ten verses telling his readers they had no righteousness of obeying the law and were justified apart from works. What would some of his readers have thought reading that? ''If we are saved apart from obeying the law we can live as we like for our righteousness is apart from obeying the law. Hence rom3:31. But did Paul mean in that verse we would perfectly obey the letter of the ten commandments he said was the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation? You must read the bible as one cohesive whole, and discern beyond the letter itself, otherwise you have no true understanding of the message of scripture.
Rom7:7&8 is great truth also. Paul wrote that as part of his explanation of why he had to die to righteousness of obeying the law. But if you preach, that obedience to the law is required to remain in a saved state, either to prove you love Jesus, and are willing to bey him, or because sin bars you from heaven, you are in reality preaching righteousness of obeying the law. For anyone who believes you must then base their Christianity on whether they obey the law or not. Justification hinges on observing the law
True -- read the whole bible,
multiple verses to make sure you interpret the single verse correctly the Bible doesn't contradict itself.
perfectly obey isn't what teach, i say aim to obey the law because thats what you do when you love someone.
We can't keep the law ourselves.
We can't obey it with this fallen nature.
Jesus is our Righteousness because He perfectly kept the law.
By faith Jesus will help us to obey it.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Can you see how the flesh fails and that the Spirit succeeds, can you see how we fail in the flesh but when we walk in the Spirit we succeed.
Justification does not hinge on obedience, Turn it around, obedience come as a result of justification. Faith is the key to this.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
 

TM19782017

Active member
Dec 15, 2018
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In 2019 It seems impossible follow them all and as I understand them, o break one, you break them all.
Have we all not stepped on a bug and killed it?
Have we all not lied?
I believe the 2 great commandments that Jesus gave are totally doable.

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind," before also paraphrasing a second passage; "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

he also said to hang those 2 on all the others and if we do, the others will fall into place
 
T

Tim416

Guest
True -- read the whole bible,
multiple verses to make sure you interpret the single verse correctly the Bible doesn't contradict itself.
perfectly obey isn't what teach, i say aim to obey the law because thats what you do when you love someone.
We can't keep the law ourselves.
We can't obey it with this fallen nature.
Jesus is our Righteousness because He perfectly kept the law.
By faith Jesus will help us to obey it.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Can you see how the flesh fails and that the Spirit succeeds, can you see how we fail in the flesh but when we walk in the Spirit we succeed.
Justification does not hinge on obedience, Turn it around, obedience come as a result of justification. Faith is the key to this.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Yes, it all depends on how much we love God doesn't it. For the more you love someone the more you want to please them. I'm sure, if you are married you never have to think of any of the Ten Commandments where you wife is concerned because you love her. It is instinctive in you to want to please her. You would not have to focus on for example, Thou shalt not kill where she is concerned would you, or thou shalt not steal? You would never once dwell on them.
And absolutely, the flesh will always fail, only the Spirit in believers can succeed. A baptist minister of fifty years said:
If we followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never commit sin, the reality of which escapes us all.
So when we read the letter of the bible, we must never forget what underwrites it all where God's children are concerned. God's great love, mercy and compassion to those who accept his son as their saviour, For without that we have no security at all. As David said:
I trust in your unfailing love for ever and ever
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Romans 7:4-6
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

2 Corinthians 3:5-9
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Galatians 3:10-12
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
 

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

This chapter makes it absolutely clear that both our salvation and our sanctification are by faith, not by following the law. Paul was clear about what he meant by "the law". He didn't mean the rabbinic teachings; he meant the Law as given to Moses. The quote in verse 10 is from Deuteronomy 27:26 which says, “Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.”
.
That is Right, Faith. What is this Faith in which Paul speaks?

We are crucified with Christ: nevertheless we live; yet not us, but Christ liveth in us: and the life which we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved us, and gave himself for us. Gal 2:20

The Faith OF the Son of GOD.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27

What does Paul through GOD mean when He states we are dead nevertheless we live by the Faith of Christ? What is this Faith? Not I but Christ's Faith. Romans chapter 10:6-8 explain this Faith as Paul through GOD paraphrases Deut 30:11-14 to open our understanding. He paraphrased Deut. to draw our attention to it so we would make the following connect.

The righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach ; For Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth) is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
(Rom 10:4-8; Deut 30:11-14)

To further this point we will go to Hebrews chapter eight where the writer through the Spirit quotes Jeremiah. The same thing is being stated just in different words.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws (Christ, the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: For Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth) is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. That is, the word of faith, which we preach.
(Heb 8:10)

It is a NEW ministry. Not of Tables of Stone and of parchment; the Book of the Law. But of the fleshly Tables of the Heart; Faith through Christ and of Christ.

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. For Christ, the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness and the ministry to every one that believeth. that is, the word of faith, which we preach. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
(2Co 3:3-5)


And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth): Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
(Deu 30:6; Col 2:10-12)
 
T

Tim416

Guest
Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it Matt5:17
Paul states we do not make void the law through faith, rather we establish the law Rom3:31
Paul also states:
Christ is the end of the law, unto righteousness Rom10:4
Paul did not say:

Christ is the end of the law full stop!!
James said if you do not commit adultery but do commit murder you have become a lawbreaker James2:11

How can you be a lawbreaker if that law does not exist?

How can a believer have a saviour from sin if no law exists?
How can you be forgiven sin if no law exists?
John wrote: Sin is(present tense) the transgression of the law 1John3:4
You can only be conscious of sin through the law Rom3:20 All Christians are conscious of sin.
John wrote:
If we claim to be without sin/transgression of the law we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1John1:8.
Law does not exist in the sense we all understand law to mean. For that requires a penalty for transgression. The Christians penalty is paid by Christ. No attaining Heaven through obeying the law, no righteousness of obeying the law. Condemnation comes through the penalty attached to the law if you break it. Remove that penalty, and all that is left is what is holy, just and good Rom7:12 Condemnation has gone
Rom 7:4 refers to dying to righteousness of obeying the law, which is consistent with Paul’s oft repeated statements.
Rom7:6 refers to being released from the law by following after the Holy Spirit. You do not concentrate on obeying the letter in order to live a holy life.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Ask Jesus; He teaches about all for all.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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i say aim to obey the law because thats what you do when you love someone.
Really? Where is that in Scripture?

If you're married, do you love your spouse by keeping the law? No. If you have kids, do you love them by keeping the law? Again, no.

We are to love God by trusting in Him and loving others.
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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The Law can only be understood through the lens of Grace.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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The Law can only be understood through the lens of Grace.
What are we saved from? Why is it called Salvation?

We are saved from Condemnation and Death.

What is it that has condemned us and shows us our death sentence is justified?

The Law, the 10 commandments, that shows us and magnifies our sin.

Who delivers us from this Death and Condemnation? Ourselves and our work at the law? Our morality and working at the "moral" law? Our brilliant wisdom and strength?

The law can only be understood as a tool of destruction. To show you beyond any shadow of doubt how desperately you need a Saviour.


After you are saved by Christ you can look back to the law and say "Whew, that was a close call". For a little while there I thought in the vain imagination of my foolish heart that I actually kept the law... Thank God the Lord showed me the error of my ways.
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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I don't think there is any scripture telling us we must choose only one, but as Paul tells us when he explains grace to us "heaven forbid". We are to know about grace, and we are to know about law.

Paul speaks against legalistic obedience even calling this sort of obedience the law of Moses. At that time many gentiles were only temporarily joining God's people then leaving taking their Jewish friends they made with them. The chief rabbis decided to make many rules for joining them and the word in the street about it was to call these requirements the law of Moses. Paul spoke against this, but there is never any scripture about a requirement not to keep God's laws.

Paul tells us that it is impossible for humans to keep God's law perfectly, that we are not perfect and can't be perfect. Humans are fond of saying that if they can't do it all they won't do any of it, but that is not scripture.

We are told to obey law, and we are told this obedience is not looked at by the Lord to decide on grace for us. Our faith is what God sees. The two, in scripture, are entirely separate. But each of the two, grace and law, are to be understood by us.
Apparently you love beating a dead horse. Absolutely the only one that kept the law was Jesus. He was the Unblemished Lamb of God who took our sins on himself so that God can gives us the free gift of grace. We are cleansed of our sins (breaking the law) with the grace through faith in Jesus. Without grace we are condemned. The only unforgivable sin is rejecting the grace. Those who do will face God with their sins intact. Woe to them!!!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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In 2019 It seems impossible follow them all and as I understand them, o break one, you break them all.
Have we all not stepped on a bug and killed it?
Have we all not lied?
I believe the 2 great commandments that Jesus gave are totally doable.

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind," before also paraphrasing a second passage; "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

he also said to hang those 2 on all the others and if we do, the others will fall into place
I take it you never get angry with your neighbor. If you do you have failed. You never look at a member of the opposite sex and do a little lusting. If you do you have failed. Etc. We are all fallible people.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
There seems to be two polar extremes. Some, in reality preach righteousness of observing the law, and others believe what is written in the moral law got abolished, neither of which is correct. By the law being written in the heart under the new covenant it simply means in your heart you do not want to commit adultery as a Christian, you do not want to lie, murder, take the Lords name in vain as a Christian. Because what is in your heart, is how you in your heart want to live. It bewilders me that can be viewed as legalistic. Is it so outrageous for believers in their hearts not to want to steal, lie, commit adultery etc? Believers never will perfectly follow what is written in that law in their hearts, for we all fail to do so. There is no condemnation for believers due to their imperfections concerning that law, for Jesus died for their imperfections. There is no works of the law to attain to heaven under such a justification, for Jesus died for your sins. Condemnation, for the truly born again Christian who in their heart loves God and wants to follow after his son does not exist.
I cannot really put it any plainer than that. The new covenant itself states that, concisely:

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 ‘This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds
.’[b]
17 Then he adds:
Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more
Heb10:15-17



To specifically address the title of this thread. You have to choose between law, as a legal law in force that has a penalty for non compliance of condemnation and grace. You do not have to choose between a law written in the heart and grace, for grace brings your transgressions to be remembered no more concerning the law written in the heart and mind
 

lastofall

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Aug 26, 2014
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Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
And what of the verse before that one?
We are crucified with Christ: nevertheless we live; yet not us, but Christ liveth in us: and the life which we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved us, and gave himself for us. Gal 2:20

What Faith? The Faith OF the Son of GOD.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27

What does Paul through GOD mean when He states we are dead nevertheless we live by the Faith of Christ? What is this Faith? Not I but Christ's Faith. Romans chapter 10:6-8 explain this Faith as Paul through GOD paraphrases Deut 30:11-14 to open our understanding. He paraphrased Deut. to draw our attention to it so we would make the following connect.

The righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach ; For Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth) is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
(Rom 10:4-8; Deut 30:11-14)

To further this point we will go to Hebrews chapter eight where the writer through the Spirit quotes Jeremiah. The same thing is being stated just in different words.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws (Christ, the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law) into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: For Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth) is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. That is, the word of faith, which we preach.
(Heb 8:10)

It is a NEW ministry. Not of Tables of Stone and of parchment; the Book of the Law. But of the fleshly Tables of the Heart; Faith through Christ and of Christ.

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. For Christ, the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth is the end of the (written) law ( on parchment and Tables of Stone) for righteousness and the ministry to every one that believeth. that is, the word of faith, which we preach. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
(2Co 3:3-5)


And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ (the word; His Commandments and Statutes written in the Book of the Law in the heart and mouth): Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
(Deu 30:6; Col 2:10-12)
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
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I think these verses are very clear about the issue of Law vs Grace;

22 The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife.[a] 23 The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise. But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise.
24 These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them. 25 And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia,[b] because she and her children live in slavery to the law. 26 But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother. 27 As Isaiah said,
“Rejoice, O childless woman,
you who have never given birth!
Break into a joyful shout,
you who have never been in labor!
For the desolate woman now has more children
than the woman who lives with her husband!”[c]
28 And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac. 29 But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law, just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit.
30 But what do the Scriptures say about that? “Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[d] 31 So, dear brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman; we are children of the free woman.

He who hath an ear, let him hear!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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There seems to be two polar extremes. Some, in reality preach righteousness of observing the law, and others believe what is written in the moral law got abolished, neither of which is correct. By the law being written in the heart under the new covenant it simply means in your heart you do not want to commit adultery as a Christian, you do not want to lie, murder, take the Lords name in vain as a Christian. Because what is in your heart, is how you in your heart want to live. It bewilders me that can be viewed as legalistic. Is it so outrageous for believers in their hearts not to want to steal, lie, commit adultery etc? Believers never will perfectly follow what is written in that law in their hearts, for we all fail to do so. There is no condemnation for believers due to their imperfections concerning that law, for Jesus died for their imperfections. There is no works of the law to attain to heaven under such a justification, for Jesus died for your sins. Condemnation, for the truly born again Christian who in their heart loves God and wants to follow after his son does not exist.
I cannot really put it any plainer than that. The new covenant itself states that, concisely:

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 ‘This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds
.’[b]
17 Then he adds:
Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more
Heb10:15-17



To specifically address the title of this thread. You have to choose between law, as a legal law in force that has a penalty for non compliance of condemnation and grace. You do not have to choose between a law written in the heart and grace, for grace brings your transgressions to be remembered no more concerning the law written in the heart and mind
The law is in place until heaven and earth disappear. That is what Jesus said. Every time we admit we sin we are confirming it is in place. Sin is breaking the law.

What Jesus accomplished on the cross was to create the free gift of grace. As Christians we accept the grace through faith in Jesus. Something we can't earn.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
The law is in place until heaven and earth disappear. That is what Jesus said. Every time we admit we sin we are confirming it is in place. Sin is breaking the law.

What Jesus accomplished on the cross was to create the free gift of grace. As Christians we accept the grace through faith in Jesus. Something we can't earn.
I have not stated the law has been abolished, but that the believer has no righteousness of obeying it
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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I have not stated the law has been abolished, but that the believer has no righteousness of obeying it
I never said you did. I was in fact reinforcing what you stated!
 

know1

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Aug 27, 2012
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Just how many threads about this topic do you want, Blik?

My goodness......:confused:
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.