Dr. Michael Brown and the Sabbath Debate

[gotime]

Jesus is the Sabbath. Why did God bless the Sabbath day? Because, He rested. Did he really rest? or did he rest in what Jesus did at the cross. I don't want to detur you, but what do you think? By trusting in what Jesus did at the cross you are keeping the Sabbath.

This presupposes that the purpose of the 7th day Sabbath was the death of Jesus.

But when we go back there is no such allusion found as it is written:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all work which God created and made.

We note that the Seventh day was connected to the first 6 in that God blessed it and sanctified it. Sanctified it means to set it apart for holy use. And the reason is clear that it was because he rested from the work of creating the world.

There is here no allusion to the cross that can be taken from these verses. It might also be good to point out that when it was made thus it was done so before sin came to this world which comes in the next chapter.

This also infers that the Sabbath at this point had no connection to sin or its effect at all. but finds its meaning in the creation of the world itself.

However I do not right off what you have said here because there were other Sabbaths similar to the 7th day Sabbath that were added by God through Moses which did indeed find their meaning and connection directly to redemption.

 

[sparkman]

What has that to do with what we are talking about sparkman? how does that impact a study on origins and purpose of the Sabbath?

I will leave it because you clearly do not want to address the origins of the Sabbath and its purpose. I study the bible systematically. In other words I start at the start and work thought to get a picture. I don't like the old start half way through and then assume upon the start. Starting at the beginning gets rid of assumptions. That is why I do it that way. But anyway Ill leave it as the convo is bearing no fruit.

The purpose of this thread was to point out that there are Christians such as the Messianic Jews I mentioned that observe the Sabbath and festivals without condemning others or claiming that others are in sin. These sources of information are some I can listen to without getting the typical Sabbath observer propaganda.

The purpose of the thread was not to give Sabbath keepers another excuse to proselytize. My purpose was to state that there is a middle ground..some who appreciate the shadows and types of the Mosaic Covenant, without claiming that they still apply today for all believers, like the Messianic Jews that I mentioned, Dr. Michael Brown and Meno Kalisher. I can appreciate their attitude and approach on this topic.

So, my remarks are not off-target; they are focused on the thread.

You guys may have turned it into another occasion to proselytize, but that wasn't the intention of the thread. The intention was to point to alternate understanding regarding this issue.

By the way, I do not acknowledge that your hermeneutics or explanations are superior to my own, nor do they conclusively prove your objective. My guess is that the majority of people on this thread understand exactly what I present. Most of the times, I read your posts and wonder exactly what you are trying to say.

 

[sparkman]

This presupposes that the purpose of the 7th day Sabbath was the death of Jesus.

But when we go back there is no such allusion found as it is written:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all work which God created and made.

We note that the Seventh day was connected to the first 6 in that God blessed it and sanctified it. Sanctified it means to set it apart for holy use. And the reason is clear that it was because he rested from the work of creating the world.

There is here no allusion to the cross that can be taken from these verses. It might also be good to point out that when it was made thus it was done so before sin came to this world which comes in the next chapter.

This also infers that the Sabbath at this point had no connection to sin or its effect at all. but finds its meaning in the creation of the world itself.

However I do not right off what you have said here because there were other Sabbaths similar to the 7th day Sabbath that were added by God through Moses which did indeed find their meaning and connection directly to redemption.

So, is the implication that those who observe Sabbath worship the Creator God, and those that don't, don't worship the Creator God?

That's what I was taught as a Sabbath keeper.

I worship the Creator God regardless if I fellowship/rest on Saturday or Sunday. He is Lord and Creator of every day.

 

[sparkman]

Jesus is the Sabbath. Why did God bless the Sabbath day? Because, He rested. Did he really rest? or did he rest in what Jesus did at the cross. I don't want to detur you, but what do you think? By trusting in what Jesus did at the cross you are keeping the Sabbath.

Not to be particular, but the Hebrew word for "rest" is really "ceased". God ceased his work of creation on the seventh day.

As Jesus said in John 5:17, both the Father and He continually work. In fact, it was impossible for Christ to stop working, as he is YHVH. YHVH sustains the universe continually. He never stopped "working" in that way, on any day ever. He is in hypostatic union, being both God and man.

John 5:17 [SUP]17 [/SUP]But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”

Notice that it was not called the Sabbath at that point either. Nor is there any indication that mankind kept the day until Exodus 16.

It was introduced to the children of Israel and it was obvious they didn't know what it was prior to its introduction.

Another interesting thing is that God marched them from Egypt to the Wilderness of Sin five weeks before giving it to them. So, if it was an objective moral law, God caused them to break it during those five weeks.

Also, the whole concept of a sign involves something unique. It's no sign or indicator if it is common knowledge.

And, specifically it was associated with the Mosaic Covenant. It was not associated with any other covenant..and New Covenant believers are not under the Mosaic Covenant signs, either circumcision or the Sabbath.

By the way, SDAs claim that the seal of God is the Sabbath, and that it is the opposite of the Mark of the Beast..or it will be in the Great Tribulation. The seal of God is obviously the Holy Spirit. Multiple verses indicate this.

So despite the alleged superior hermeneutics SDAs employ to arrive at their conclusions, they fall short of understanding some of the basic teachings of Scripture on this seal.

Ephesians 1:13-15 [SUP]13 [/SUP]In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who is the guarantee[SUP][a][/SUP] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[SUP][b][/SUP] to the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 [SUP]5 [/SUP]He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 4:30 [SUP]30 [/SUP]And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

The Sabbath was a sign under the Mosaic Covenant, but it is not for New Covenant believers. The Holy Spirit marks the New Covenant believer as belonging to God (and occupied by Him actually). The Holy Spirit is the seal of ownership, not the Sabbath.

This is a decent article on the topic:

What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?

And, a funny meme in this regard.

 

[sparkman]

Jesus is where I put my faith and trust but this thread is about the Sabbath and the thing that always has made an impact on me is the fact that God spoke from the mountain and then wrote with His finger in stone the 10 Commandments. Most of them start with Thou shalt not, but we have one that says Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy....Now why would God say Remember unless most of us have forgotten?

Another commandment says Honor your Father and your Mother.....

If you look at the 10 as a whole the first 4 show love and loyalty toward God doing what He asked us to do toward Him and the last 6 show us how to love our neighbor as ourselves. The two commandments spoken of in the New Testament summarize the 10 listed in the Old Testament.... God does not change....

This isn't about being saved because you worship on a specific day it is about listening to what God has asked of us and leaning on the Holy Spirit to equip us to do what has been asked.... We lean on Jesus and are thankful He did for us what we can't do for ourselves.... thankfulness and love, worship and praise all go to God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.... for giving us a way out of the law of sin and death not a way to ignore God's law but to trust Him (Jesus) to save us.....

The Mosaic Covenant had two signs associated with it..circumcision was the entry-level sign into the Mosaic Covenant, and the Sabbath was the continuing, "remembrance" sign.

In the New Covenant, the entry-level sign is baptism (although it looks back at regeneration or being born again which happens at the moment of faith), and the continuing, remembrance sign of the Lord's Supper.

Remember that Christ said "do this in remembrance of me"...similar language as "remember the Sabbath day" (Luke 22:19, I Cor 11:24). When I observe communion, I remember Christ's sacrifice on my behalf.

Again, different covenants, different signs. I am not under the Mosaic Covenant...neither is any New Covenant believer (Ii Corinthians 3, Galatians 3 and 4, Hebrews 8 and 9, Romans 7:1-7, Acts 15, Ephesians 2:13-15).

As I have consistently said, though, I have no issue with those who observe the Sabbath and festivals without condemning non-observers and claiming it is a requirement, but I am finding that is rare.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Mosaic Covenant had two signs associated with it..circumcision was the entry-level sign into the Mosaic Covenant, and the Sabbath was the continuing, "remembrance" sign.

In the New Covenant, the entry-level sign is baptism (although it looks back at regeneration or being born again which happens at the moment of faith), and the continuing, remembrance sign of the Lord's Supper.

Remember that Christ said "do this in remembrance of me"...similar language as "remember the Sabbath day" (Luke 22:19, I Cor 11:24). When I observe communion, I remember Christ's sacrifice on my behalf.

Again, different covenants, different signs. I am not under the Mosaic Covenant...neither is any New Covenant believer (Ii Corinthians 3, Galatians 3 and 4, Hebrews 8 and 9, Romans 7:1-7, Acts 15, Ephesians 2:13-15).

As I have consistently said, though, I have no issue with those who observe the Sabbath and festivals without condemning non-observers and claiming it is a requirement, but I am finding that is rare.

Interesting. Circumcision/baptism is the sign of (one-time) justification (covenant membership), and sabbath/communion is the sign of ongoing sanctification. I never equated the sabbath with communion before.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Not to be particular, but the Hebrew word for "rest" is really "ceased". God ceased his work of creation on the seventh day.

GOD actually ceased from work on the 6th day. The LXX has it right; the Masoretic text verse is corrupted or wrongly translated.

 

[sparkman]

Interesting. Circumcision/baptism is the sign of (one-time) justification (covenant membership), and sabbath/communion is the sign of ongoing sanctification. I never equated the sabbath with communion before.

Yes, but I do want to be careful about something in regards to this..the baptism is a sign of something that already happened..at the moment we place our faith in Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit and belong to God. We are saved.

BUT...baptism is a formal entry level sign that acknowledges this event and recognizes one as part of the community.

I do not whatsoever believe in baptismal regeneration but I am guessing you already know this. NOR do I minimize the importance of baptism. Like I said, it is one of the covenant signs. It is how we identify with Jesus Christ publicly, just like the Israelite child identified as one of the members of the community by physical circumcision.

Another interesting thing is that circumcision was so important that a child was circumcised on the Sabbath even if it involved some "work". So, the implication is that circumcision was more important than the Sabbath..yet Sabbath observers claim that it endures while the other sign (circumcision) does not (John 7:23). The logic was pretty simple..entrance into the Israelite community was more important than observing the Sabbath, as you can't rightly observe the Sabbath sign without being a part of the community first.

As you've probably gathered, my position is that the Sabbath is a sign of the Mosaic Covenant, and New Covenant believers are not under the Mosaic Covenant. It's not our sign. It is wrong to tell Messianic Jewish believers that they should not continue observing the types and shadows (and even Gentiles if they find meaning in them), but it is equally wrong to claim that New Covenant believers MUST observe them. Jewish believers in the early church continued to observe these types and shadows, even physical circumcision, but not as a matter of compulsion..more due to cultural affinity.

Also, just to clarify, I affirm justification, or made righteous in God's sight, by faith alone...we are justified or made righteous in God's sight on the basis of faith alone. A real faith will produce good works and obedience, though. Christians continue to have incidences of sin in their lives, unfortunately, but their overall lives when all is done will be one of obedience. The obedience is a fruit of salvation, and not from hanging fruit on their trees.

I know the verses in James about faith and works...James was talking about the kind of faith that saves..one that produces works. But this is a totally separate discussion.

 

[sparkman]

GOD actually ceased from work on the 6th day. The LXX has it right; the Masoretic text verse is corrupted or wrongly translated.

The history of the texts of the OT is something I have yet to study.

I know some about the LXX. Are there alternates to the Masoretic text?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The history of the texts of the OT is something I have yet to study.

I know some about the LXX. Are there alternates to the Masoretic text?

Not in Hebrew. The LXX is the alternative. Here's how it's written in the LXX

And God finished on the sixth day his works which he made, and he ceased on the seventh day from all his works which he made. Genesis 2:2​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here's another LXX translation

And God completed in the sixth day his works which he did. And he rested on the seventh day from all his works which he did. Genesis 2:2​

 

[sparkman]

Here's another LXX translation

And God completed in the sixth day his works which he did. And he rested on the seventh day from all his works which he did. Genesis 2:2​

What do you mean by another LXX translation?

 

[sparkman]

Not in Hebrew. The LXX is the alternative. Here's how it's written in the LXX

And God finished on the sixth day his works which he made, and he ceased on the seventh day from all his works which he made. Genesis 2:2​

I know that there are a few contradictions when comparing Kings with Chronicles in the Masoretic text that do not exist in the LXX.

In these cases, you would say that the Masoretic text became corrupted by scribal copying errors?

 

[PurerInHeart]

The bible says that if you follow part of a law you must follow all of that law. So if you follow the law of Moses (that Christ finished and nailed to the cross), you must find a 2,000 year old high priest to sacrifice for your sins on your behalf, because they don't exist anymore. You'll have to also take adulterers outside of the city and stone them to death. You'll have to pay for certain with certain animals instead of money- that's just to name a few. And you cannot also follow the law of Christ, because that would be committing spiritual adultery according to Romans 7:1-4. So none of the New Testament would apply to you, including Jesus, our high priest, Who was sacrificed once for all- even those who were under Moses. So you have to in fact be saying to Christ, "Your sacrifice was not good enough for me, I'm going back to the blood of bulls and goats- which never saved, only postponed."

If it doesn't bother you that others keep the sabbath, or any other part of the old law, then it doesn't bother you that they are spiritually lost.

 

[sparkman]

The bible says that if you follow part of a law you must follow all of that law. So if you follow the law of Moses (that Christ finished and nailed to the cross), you must find a 2,000 year old high priest to sacrifice for your sins on your behalf, because they don't exist anymore. You'll have to also take adulterers outside of the city and stone them to death. You'll have to pay for certain with certain animals instead of money- that's just to name a few. And you cannot also follow the law of Christ, because that would be committing spiritual adultery according to Romans 7:1-4. So none of the New Testament would apply to you, including Jesus, our high priest, Who was sacrificed once for all- even those who were under Moses. So you have to in fact be saying to Christ, "Your sacrifice was not good enough for me, I'm going back to the blood of bulls and goats- which never saved, only postponed."

If it doesn't bother you that others keep the sabbath, or any other part of the old law, then it doesn't bother you that they are spiritually lost.

I would have agreed with you up until the last sentence.

Jewish Christians in the early church did keep the Sabbath and festivals, and even physical circumcision..read Acts 21.

As I said, there is a middle ground where there are individuals who observe non-moral elements of the Mosaic Covenant, but do not claim everyone else must observe them. They do this because these days have meaning for them as shadows and types, or cultural affinity, and not because of compulsion. They realize the shadows and types pointed toward Christ. They do not claim these shadows and types are requirements, and that they earn, merit or keep them in salvation. They do not judge non-observers as being in sin. I respect such individuals.

We do not want to put unneeded barriers between Jesus Christ and Jewish seekers who are turning to Christ. It is not necessary for them to abandon their culture as long as they understand these things are shadows and types, and that they should not judge non-observers. I pray that none of them fall into the hands of some Hebrew Roots Movement and Messianic Jew cultists who would turn them into accusers, and teach them horrible doctrines such as denying the deity of Christ, the Triune nature of God, to deny the inspired words of Paul, and to accept extra-biblical sources of "revelation".

Paul continued to observe elements of the Mosaic Covenant because it helped him reach unsaved Jews with Jesus. He was not a rock-thrower like many of the modern Sabbath/festival/Torah observers are today.

And I totally agree with you that those who claim to be Torah observers don't observe the Torah anyways. They don't generally live in Sukkoths for seven or eight days during the Feast of Tabernacles, and they don't take three pilgrimage feasts every year to Jerusalem. They don't put their wives and daughters out of the home during their menstrual period, and avoid shaking hands with women who are in their menstruation. They can claim they observe Torah all they want, but it's not true. The Torah cannot be observed without an intact Levitical priesthood and tabernacle or Temple. Even then, Christ has replaced these elements with his own sacrifice, and he is our High Priest.

Regarding being lost, some accusers are lost, some of them are saved but doctrinally confused. I was saved even as an Armstrongite but doctrinally confused. God is merciful even in regards to doctrinal error.

By the way, I'm beginning to dislike the word "Judaizer" because some ethnical Jews could get the wrong idea that we are against ethnic Jews. This label applies to those who make accusations concerning ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Torah and their binding requirement upon New Covenant believers. I wish there was another commonly understood word to identify such individuals.

 

[JesusLives]

Jesus is the Sabbath. Why did God bless the Sabbath day? Because, He rested. Did he really rest? or did he rest in what Jesus did at the cross. I don't want to detur you, but what do you think? By trusting in what Jesus did at the cross you are keeping the Sabbath.

Man wasn't made for the Sabbath - God made the Sabbath for man....not that God needed to rest, but God knew that man would need a day of rest and God created that day for man to rest in Him and worship Him. A day for us to spend with God and family....Yes, Jesus is our Sabbath rest because we rest in Him on the Sabbath God created for us...Blessed, Sanctified, Hallowed, Made Holy, Set Apart and as a Sign between us and God.... God said these things I am only repeating them and as a special reminder God said Remember the Sabbath Day to Keep It Holy.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What do you mean by another LXX translation?

That second translation I posted is from the Apostolic Bible Polyglot. It's an interlinear translation that uses more than just the Sixtine manuscript (I can't remember the other manuscripts). I think you can still get it for free; second link from left in my signature.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I know that there are a few contradictions when comparing Kings with Chronicles in the Masoretic text that do not exist in the LXX.

In these cases, you would say that the Masoretic text became corrupted by scribal copying errors?

It's too hard to say where all of the corruptions in the MT originated, but I do know that at least one of them is due to Jewish tradition taking precedence over scripture. That interesting example is explained in the rightmost link in my signature.

If you are interested I can show you an example where the MT is most likely correct, and the LXX corrupt.

 

[gotime]

So, is the implication that those who observe Sabbath worship the Creator God, and those that don't, don't worship the Creator God?

That's what I was taught as a Sabbath keeper.

I worship the Creator God regardless if I fellowship/rest on Saturday or Sunday. He is Lord and Creator of every day.

The point I was trying to make is simple. The 7th day Sabbath is connected to God's creative work in making this world. It shows no hint of purpose in connection with redemption as seemed to be asserted by the person I was responding to.

I am speaking of its use in the beginning, Gen 2. Exodus 20 confirms this use. However there are Sabbaths that were added after sin which were part of the feasts which very much connect to sin.

So these ones indeed were a shadow of redemption in Christ. As to worship I made no statement.

 

[prove-all]

That's part of the beauty of the Greek language. It was the universal trade language
at the time, and someone in just about every nation understood it. So, they could take
the writings and translate them into their own language for the benefit of all.
This enabled the writings to be disseminated over a wide area quickly.
.

would that include the times the Catholic Church banned the bible
from people and say only they could understand it?

Bible possession once banned by the Catholic Church!
Bible Possession Once Banned by the Catholic Church!