Dualism, the doctrine of a disassociated identity

dcontroversal · Nov 23, 2016

See, you just sinned at least three times in the above post

a) You judged my motive
b) You accused me of hating truth
c) You accused me of judging

Folks, the above proves that he speaks out of one side of his mouth, but his actions belie his falsehood and answers the question he refuses to answer...

Yes indeed He does sin!

Ahwatukee · Nov 23, 2016

The following scripture, which Dcontraversal posted, should settle this question:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

In addition, I would have to direct your attention to the letters written to the seven churches (and all believers) in regards to the Lord's rebukes and His command for them to repent of their respective sinful conditions.

Nat777 · Nov 23, 2016

InSiritInTruth The only reason you people ask this question over and over again is so you can bring accusations and condemnation. If we answer one way or the other, we still will be accused and condemned by those who hate the Truth according to the words of God.

What I am, and what you are does not make the words of God any less true. So stop trying to judge and conform the words of God to your own sinful condition and image, but rather let the words and Word of God transform you in to the image of God's blessed Son Jesus Christ.

We change in out way, mind , and heart. But the body is flsh and will stay that way till we die. The only problem people have is some confuse them with telling them stuff that is just not true.
Telling people they change and are not in the flesh anymore is never explained right. It gets told like you somehow trasnform into a different being. So people walking with god see that is wrong and start fearing they missed something. THAT is why they ask. Instead of telling them the right way people make them even more cofused .
Fact is we are flesh and we keep being in the flesh. BUT our mind and heart changes so the resisting of evil ( sin) and trying to do what god asking us to do is important. THAT is what happens. We try to do what god wants us to so. Our focus changes. But not our Body itself. And we still battle out body every day.

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 23, 2016

John146 said:

Sin is first conceived in the heart, then later acted out, so you can't blame your body. Also, it is the Spirit of God that renews our mind, not our own works or study of scripture. And putting on the image of Christ speaks of his inward spiritual image (heart and mind) by Christ being in us. Also, if you are a new creature in Christ old things have passed away, and all things become new.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

PeterJens · Nov 23, 2016

The issue has never been about do people sin or are they in unconfessed sin today.

The issue is do they regard themselves as perfect with sinful flesh, or dualistic.

This is a gnostic position and not Christian. It is a solution to the problem of
the old man being in someones life, but it is not a good solution.

The problem is as followers of Christ, we regard this as heresy, and leads people
to stay in unconfessed sin and not change. For these reasons we will always
oppose such teaching and reject the teachers who preach it.

It is really this simple.

Grace777x70 · Nov 23, 2016

We have a new heart now in Christ. We are joined as one spirit with the Lord - created in righteousness and holiness.

If sin is conceived in the heart now after the cross where the Lord has created a new heart - than Christ must participate in this because we are one in spirit. Of course this is foolishness.

We do not "become" new creations in Christ - we are now new creations joined as one spirit with the Lord. Paul said to "Behold - look, perceive, see" that we are now new creations in Christ - in our inner man of the heart.

Thank God that the gospel of the grace of Christ has given us believers a new heart!

I believe that scripture teaches that we have new hearts now in Christ as a new creation in Him. In the Old Testament David cried out prophetically "Create in me a clean heart O God". Jesus Himself says to "clean up the inside of the cup and the vessel will be clean".

This is where Jesus was talking about sin originating in the heart - this is the reason for the new heart in Christ

We don't need to search our hearts for wrong things - we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ living in us now. It's the flesh that "speaks" to us as all the "works" in Gal 5 are from the flesh. We are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 - but we are "in the Spirit" - our inner man in Christ.

We need as Christians to learn to live from this new heart that was "created" in us because of Christ's finished work for us.

I firmly believe we are confusing the "desires of the flesh which still has the law of sin in it" ( Romans 7:23 ) and wrongly calling it our heart. We have been circumcised with the circumcision of the Heart - called the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh. Col 2:11. This is also called "being sealed by the Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13

The Holy Spirit "cut away" ( as in physical circumcision ) the body of the flesh from the inner man who is in Christ - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:23

Here are the reasons why I believe we Christians have a new heart now in Christ and not a corrupted heart. We need to learn how to live from this new heart which is where Christ is in us as one spirit by the Holy Spirit.

The believers new heart in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )

Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.

Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.

Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.

Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God has cleansed our hearts by faith.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love from our hearts now as it is pure.

1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )

1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.

There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.

We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.

John146 · Nov 23, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

What part of you is in Christ? The inner man? Is your body in Christ? Old things about your inner man have passed away, and all things about your inner man are become new. Sadly, the inner man still dwells within a sinful body of flesh. Our flesh will be changed one day, but until then, it becomes a daily battle.

PeterJens · Nov 23, 2016

A common reaction to dualism

Most believers who meet a dualist will have a very short conversation.
They will state their beliefs and we will walk away.

cc demonstrates it is not an opinion as as whole world view, which generates
its own salvation, relationship with God and view of limited scripture.

But it is good to shine a light on this area, so you can form your own churches
and teachers, and live in your bubble.

PeterJens · Nov 23, 2016

To answer the question which part of us is saved, all of it.

John146 · Nov 23, 2016

PeterJens said:

Saved, yes...redeemed, no...

PeterJens · Nov 23, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

Two buried ethics.
No resolution or working things through.
Revelation of what we are, not what we need to become.

These two ethics doom any believer to stay in unconfessed rebellion.
Any sin in someones life needs to be worked through and dealt with, healed, resolved.
Looking within will just unwrap more error and sinful behaviour, because there is no
perfect spirit, just the old man trying to defeat the work of the Holy Spirit in someones heart.

It is why these congregations have so many long term issues, and relationships and real fellowship
is not their priority, just mega churches.

Grace777x70 · Nov 23, 2016

One can be self/sin-focused or Christ/righteousness-focused.

Looking for sin in the flesh is like an onion - there will always be sin in the flesh no matter how much you peel it. The flesh with the law of sin in it will always be there. Focus on what Christ has already done.

Set your mind on things above where you have been raised up with Christ. Col.2:1-4

We choose to be Christ focused and to believe what He did for us on the cross and in our resurrection with Him with the creation of the new man.....the inner man of the heart created in Christ Jesus in righteousness and true holiness.

We identify that our "old man" died with Him and that we have been raised up in the new man in Christ now..seek Him now!

That we believe His life in us changes us. We believe grace teaches us how to live in this world.

Titus 2:11-12 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men
,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

I realize that these beliefs in the grace of God....especially the acceptance grace and the total forgiveness that Jesus bought and paid for with His blood....that these can be offensive to our religious beliefs and what we have been taught in church.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and we will sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly as we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 23, 2016

John146 said:

I see people are trying to blame the body for continuing to sin, but again sin originates in the heart because of a lustful spirit. Notice Paul says all sin is done without the body---->>>>

1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Notice what James says....

James 1:12-15

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

Ok, now how and where is lust conceived? Lust is caused by the spirit working in the first nature of man=flesh and is first conceived in the heart.

James 4:5
Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

Notice what Jesus says about lust in the heart....

Matthew 5:28

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

It is by the Holy Spirit we are able to put to death the deeds and lusts of the flesh.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Galatians 5:16-21

[SUP]16 [/SUP]This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 23, 2016

PeterJens said:

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 23, 2016

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

PeterJens · Nov 23, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

This is so wrapped up incorrectly.
Think on good things. Confess and repent of sin.
Think on how to love those around you, think of the glories of the word, dwell in it richly.
Spend time praising God, fellowshiping with fellow believers, doing good.

Now these realities do not fit the polarised sentence

One can be self/sin-focused or Christ/righteousness-focused..

So I actually regard this all as a red herring and irrelevant.
We are always to deal with sin when Jesus and the Holy Spirit bring it to mind.
Our core focus is on how to love, how to serve, how to be in the Lord and how to shine.

We are to commit everything to the Lord and dwell with Him is all our deeds.

Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
Phil 4:6

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
Phil 4:8

Instead, be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 5:18-20

If you can do this, you truly bring praise to our Lord the King.

passing_through · Nov 23, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

There is a vast difference in "putting my body under", "you body is the temple of the Holy Spirit", and Sanctification of the flesh and our corporal fleshly body being saved - it's not saved nor redeemed.

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 23, 2016

Where in that verse did I suggest that?

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 23, 2016

How bout this one....
Romans 8:23

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

passing_through · Nov 23, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

Precisely, you've proved my point, we are waiting for the redemption of our body. Did you read that verse.

Dualism, the doctrine of a disassociated identity

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