Ephesians 6:12 A biblical perspective.

[Niki7]

Well, this op is definitely not a biblical perspective. It often goes one of two ways.

1. people think the devil is already defeated and there is no fuss to be made and that verse in Ephesians should read 'we wrestle not' instead of 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood'

2. everything bad is the devil's fault and there is a demon under every rock and even in the paint you just put on the wall

either way, the devil is messing with you

then we have the actual biblical understanding which directly conflicts with the silly op

is there a personal devil? there is just one devil, many demons, but the devil will wrap you up as much as you let him through his demons

he is quite content if a person believes he is no longer able to stick out his foot and trip up believers

he is equally content if a person goes the other way and sees demons in everything

deception comes in many forums but the Bible is clear the devil and demons are active and will be until God ends them in the lake of fire

ps: do not care what your comeback is mr clay. your opinion is not the one that matters. in fact, reading some of your posts, it seems you may be generally confused and not just about this particular subject

 

[CS1]

Well, this op is definitely not a biblical perspective. It often goes one of two ways.

1. people think the devil is already defeated and there is no fuss to be made and that verse in Ephesians should read 'we wrestle not' instead of 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood'

2. everything bad is the devil's fault and there is a demon under every rock and even in the paint you just put on the wall

either way, the devil is messing with you

then we have the actual biblical understanding which directly conflicts with the silly op

is there a personal devil? there is just one devil, many demons, but the devil will wrap you up as much as you let him through his demons

he is quite content if a person believes he is no longer able to stick out his foot and trip up believers

he is equally content if a person goes the other way and sees demons in everything

deception comes in many forums but the Bible is clear the devil and demons are active and will be until God ends them in the lake of fire

ps: do not care what your comeback is mr clay. your opinion is not the one that matters. in fact, reading some of your posts, it seems you may be generally confused and not just about this particular subject

I agree it has been one or the other extremes. Yet the word of God teaches accountability for one's actions, and the mortal enemy of our souls is a real thing.

 

[Clayman]

I agree it has been one or the other extremes. Yet the word of God teaches accountability for one's actions, and the mortal enemy of our souls is a real thing.

You may have highlighted a difference in our thinking, if you think Satan is a real thing and your mortal enemy!

I think sin is my mortal enemy, when Adam sinned, sin brought forth death, we inherited the sin nature, and we inherited death, when Christ took my place on the cross and made payment for my sins, He defeated sin my mortal enemy for me, now I have received eternal life, sin and death no longer has it's hold on me.

Even if Satan was still running around with all his demons it would have zero effect on me, I wouldn't care less about them, I am Christ's and He is mine, when I walk out my door I have no fear of some bad guy called Satan, even if he or some random stranger killed me, I don't care, I know where I'm going and I have life eternal, and no one, No One, can pluck me from my Lord's hand, I am eternally secure in His sheep fold. I am already victorious and with my sin and my transgressions blotted out at the cross, my enemy is defeated.

I realise there is the literal vs metaphoric aspect of things which make what we are talking about confusing. As Satan is a great example and pattern of Sin.

 

[Clayman]

Well, this op is definitely not a biblical perspective. It often goes one of two ways.

1. people think the devil is already defeated and there is no fuss to be made and that verse in Ephesians should read 'we wrestle not' instead of 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood'

2. everything bad is the devil's fault and there is a demon under every rock and even in the paint you just put on the wall

I think there is one more way it can go, so I think it can go one of 3 ways, there are those and I think the most common view

3. Christ defeated Satan at the cross but he is not yet defeated, category

Although seems an oxy moron to me.

either way, the devil is messing with you

then we have the actual biblical understanding which directly conflicts with the silly op

is there a personal devil? there is just one devil, many demons, but the devil will wrap you up as much as you let him through his demons

he is quite content if a person believes he is no longer able to stick out his foot and trip up believers

he is equally content if a person goes the other way and sees demons in everything

deception comes in many forums but the Bible is clear the devil and demons are active and will be until God ends them in the lake of fire

If you don't mind explaining this for me. When Jesus cast demons out of people, did he just move them out of the person into the air beside them so they could just then go and possess the next person? Seems a rather counter productive thing to do to me?

ps: do not care what your comeback is mr clay. your opinion is not the one that matters. in fact, reading some of your posts, it seems you may be generally confused and not just about this particular subject

Oh the ole I don't have my pet demons running around harassing me, so it means I must have a few marbles running loose argument!

If only I was more sane and rational then I would not only see my pet demons but I would understand other subjects better.

 

[Clayman]

Revelation 20:1-3
¶“1Next I saw an angel coming down from heaven. He held in his hand the key to the bottomless pit. He also held a great chain. 2The angel seized the dragon, who is the ancient serpent, the devil, also known as Satan. The angel bound him for a thousand years, 3throwing him into the great pit. The angel shut the pit and sealed it over the dragon. This was so the nations might not believe his lies anymore, until the thousand years were finished. After that he must be released for a little while.” (Revelation 20:1-3).

About 1000 years ago he was released?

Do you believe he is bound and inactive in respect to both heaven and earth? Or just earth?

While I agree with some of our postmil and amil brothers that Satan is currently bound(I see less of them hold that view now though) I don't agree with them in regards to the Messianic 1000yr period here.

To answer your question, I believe Satan was ruling the world until the time of Christ going to the cross, he was then cast out into the abyss, then in the future tribulation period, which I think is very soon, he will come up out of the pit, and rule the world again, and bring the worlds armies up to Jerusalem, then Christ returns and an angel grabs Satan and again binds him for 1000yrs.

Where Israel will rule the nations while dwelling in her land as promised to Abraham, with the added information here of for a period of 1000yrs

Just say if you a more detailed explanation with the verses and stuff be more than happy to show the reason for my timeline if you want,
Or fire away with any questions like what does it mean that he will deceive the nations no more during this period, Doesn't that prove he was deceiving the nations up until this point? Happy do delve into things

Oh yea, and yes I see Satan being cast into the pit twice, and released twice just as I see Christ coming twice.

 

[Dino246]

Well, this op is definitely not a biblical perspective. It often goes one of two ways.

1. people think the devil is already defeated and there is no fuss to be made and that verse in Ephesians should read 'we wrestle not' instead of 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood'

2. everything bad is the devil's fault and there is a demon under every rock and even in the paint you just put on the wall

either way, the devil is messing with you

then we have the actual biblical understanding which directly conflicts with the silly op

is there a personal devil? there is just one devil, many demons, but the devil will wrap you up as much as you let him through his demons

he is quite content if a person believes he is no longer able to stick out his foot and trip up believers

he is equally content if a person goes the other way and sees demons in everything

deception comes in many forums but the Bible is clear the devil and demons are active and will be until God ends them in the lake of fire

ps: do not care what your comeback is mr clay. your opinion is not the one that matters. in fact, reading some of your posts, it seems you may be generally confused and not just about this particular subject

It sounds like you've read The Screwtape Letters.

 

[Cameron143]

While I agree with some of our postmil and amil brothers that Satan is currently bound(I see less of them hold that view now though) I don't agree with them in regards to the Messianic 1000yr period here.

To answer your question, I believe Satan was ruling the world until the time of Christ going to the cross, he was then cast out into the abyss, then in the future tribulation period, which I think is very soon, he will come up out of the pit, and rule the world again, and bring the worlds armies up to Jerusalem, then Christ returns and an angel grabs Satan and again binds him for 1000yrs.

Where Israel will rule the nations while dwelling in her land as promised to Abraham, with the added information here of for a period of 1000yrs

Just say if you a more detailed explanation with the verses and stuff be more than happy to show the reason for my timeline if you want,
Or fire away with any questions like what does it mean that he will deceive the nations no more during this period, Doesn't that prove he was deceiving the nations up until this point? Happy do delve into things

Oh yea, and yes I see Satan being cast into the pit twice, and released twice just as I see Christ coming twice.

Satan being bound is a reference to Jesus stating that He will build His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against. Jesus now holds the keys to death and hell, and the kingdom of God which began as a mustard seed is growing. One day it will be the largest of trees. Since Pentecost, the church has been growing and will continue to until most people are a part of it. The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.

 

[Clayman]

2 Cor 12:7~~Because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!

You may disagree with me, but I think the thorn in the flesh was Paul's blindness that occurred from the encounter on the road to Damascus, As he journeyed along the road suddenly there was a bright light surrounding him from heaven, acts 9:3

Paul comes across as a good type of the Lord Jesus, even his physical stature now has no comeliness or beauty that they should desire Him. For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account.” 2cor 10;10

The verse you quoted says because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations given to Paul who in turn was to give to us, there was a chance he could have received special status and awe from people, This was a check given to Paul from the Lord.

Because of Paul's opposition to Christians he was walking in sin and darkness and opposing God's Word, the reason Paul refers to it as a messenger of Satan torment him, means that Paul knew he was in the wrong, was blind but now has seen the light.

Again I believe its a metaphoric reference to walking in darkness, to self will opposed to God's will that caused his blindness.

Literally the Light from God blinded him, not Satan, metaphorically his opposing God's which is after the pattern of Satan blinded him.

Well that's how I view it, if you see it another way I would be more than happy to hear your explanation

 

[Kroogz]

While I agree with some of our postmil and amil brothers that Satan is currently bound(I see less of them hold that view now though) I don't agree with them in regards to the Messianic 1000yr period here.

To answer your question, I believe Satan was ruling the world until the time of Christ going to the cross, he was then cast out into the abyss, then in the future tribulation period, which I think is very soon, he will come up out of the pit, and rule the world again, and bring the worlds armies up to Jerusalem, then Christ returns and an angel grabs Satan and again binds him for 1000yrs.

Where Israel will rule the nations while dwelling in her land as promised to Abraham, with the added information here of for a period of 1000yrs

Just say if you a more detailed explanation with the verses and stuff be more than happy to show the reason for my timeline if you want,
Or fire away with any questions like what does it mean that he will deceive the nations no more during this period, Doesn't that prove he was deceiving the nations up until this point? Happy do delve into things

Oh yea, and yes I see Satan being cast into the pit twice, and released twice just as I see Christ coming twice.

Thank you.

Do you believe he is bound and inactive in respect to both heaven and earth? Or just earth?

 

[Kroogz]

You may disagree with me, but I think the thorn in the flesh was Paul's blindness that occurred from the encounter on the road to Damascus, As he journeyed along the road suddenly there was a bright light surrounding him from heaven, acts 9:3

Paul comes across as a good type of the Lord Jesus, even his physical stature now has no comeliness or beauty that they should desire Him. For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account.” 2cor 10;10

The verse you quoted says because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations given to Paul who in turn was to give to us, there was a chance he could have received special status and awe from people, This was a check given to Paul from the Lord.

Because of Paul's opposition to Christians he was walking in sin and darkness and opposing God's Word, the reason Paul refers to it as a messenger of Satan torment him, means that Paul knew he was in the wrong, was blind but now has seen the light.

Again I believe its a metaphoric reference to walking in darkness, to self will opposed to God's will that caused his blindness.

Literally the Light from God blinded him, not Satan, metaphorically his opposing God's which is after the pattern of Satan blinded him.

Well that's how I view it, if you see it another way I would be more than happy to hear your explanation

I do have an explanation:
Job 1~~
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”

8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”

9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing?

10 “Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.

11 “But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.”

12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

Correct me if I am wrong.

You said satan and the angels he deceived fell at the time of Christ's birth? And were bound at His resurrection?

 

[Kroogz]

You may disagree with me, but I think the thorn in the flesh was Paul's blindness that occurred from the encounter on the road to Damascus, As he journeyed along the road suddenly there was a bright light surrounding him from heaven, acts 9:3

Paul comes across as a good type of the Lord Jesus, even his physical stature now has no comeliness or beauty that they should desire Him. For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account.” 2cor 10;10

The verse you quoted says because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations given to Paul who in turn was to give to us, there was a chance he could have received special status and awe from people, This was a check given to Paul from the Lord.

Because of Paul's opposition to Christians he was walking in sin and darkness and opposing God's Word, the reason Paul refers to it as a messenger of Satan torment him, means that Paul knew he was in the wrong, was blind but now has seen the light.

Again I believe its a metaphoric reference to walking in darkness, to self will opposed to God's will that caused his blindness.

Literally the Light from God blinded him, not Satan, metaphorically his opposing God's which is after the pattern of Satan blinded him.

Well that's how I view it, if you see it another way I would be more than happy to hear your explanation

I quoted Job in my post above. And this ties into my second post to you. Satan does not want us to think he is around.......Because if we reach "super grace" maturity, God allows us to be tested by satan himself. And we can witness to satan the Ultimate Glory of God and be a witness in satan's final judgement. This is running the race..........and winning. Christ is our example of how to do it.

Phil 4:9-13
9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me – put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
10 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

Job 1~~
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”

8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”

9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing?

10 “Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.

11 “But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.”

12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

1 Cor 6:3
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

https://gbiblenigeria.org/root/media/books/Angelic-Conflict-PDF.pdf

 

[Clayman]

Thank you.

Do you believe he is bound and inactive in respect to both heaven and earth? Or just earth?

Correct me if I am wrong.
You said satan and the angels he deceived fell at the time of Christ's birth? And were bound at His resurrection?

Yes, I believe the war in heaven happened at the time of Christs first advent, were cast out of heaven to earth, then were being cast out of earth(people) into the abyss, where they are still bound and inactive.

Note: the casting out of demons into the abyss must have been completed by the time Peter wrote his 2nd epistle, or Jude wrote his, whichever was penned earlier, as they record for us that the angels that sinned are now bound.

 

[Inquisitor]

Satan is so laughing at you right now ---with this Comment ----

So Sad that you are so DUPED by the Master himself

I voted for this guy in the last election.

 

[Clayman]

I quoted Job in my post above. And this ties into my second post to you. Satan does not want us to think he is around.......Because if we reach "super grace" maturity, God allows us to be tested by satan himself. And we can witness to satan the Ultimate Glory of God and be a witness in satan's final judgement. This is running the race..........and winning. Christ is our example of how to do it.

The first thought that comes to mind when I read this is that the spirit of God led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted for our benefit, it proves that Jesus even at His weakest cannot be tempted, as we already know God cannot sin it proves He is God too. They reckon the endurance of man can last about 40days with water and without food before he dies.

We have already failed the sin test, we are sinners, There is no need for Satan to test us, 1Cor 10:13 Also tells us this "No temptation has overtaken us except what is common to man" also we know God will not let us be tested beyond our strength, He always leaves a way out so we will endure.

I'm not sure why we have to witness to Satan how good we are, I think his problem may have been he knows we are not, Christ's grace and mercy should be the theme of our glorying, and I agree Christ is our example and naturally we will be become more and more Christ like as we walk in His will, as we run the race.

Phil 4:9-13
9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me – put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
10 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

Job 1~~
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”

8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”

9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing?

10 “Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.

11 “But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.”

12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

1 Cor 6:3
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

https://gbiblenigeria.org/root/media/books/Angelic-Conflict-PDF.pdf

I just had a quick glimpse of the link you provided, I have books that are very similar in my book case, and they are partly responsible for how people think nowadays and partly responsible for how I think, for reading them helped me see certain obvious errors.

For a start it proclaims that the war in heaven happened before our creation, and I don't ascribe to any gap theories, or long age views, It will also proclaim that the war was the reason for sin entering into our creation.

Yet scripture is quite plain, Adam was the first to sin and Adam brought sin into the world.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

I suppose if there is a bit in the book that you think is really good and pertains to why you think I'm wrong post it and Ill try and explain my position.

 

[Kroogz]

Yes, I believe the war in heaven happened at the time of Christs first advent, were cast out of heaven to earth, then were being cast out of earth(people) into the abyss, where they are still bound and inactive.

Note: the casting out of demons into the abyss must have been completed by the time Peter wrote his 2nd epistle, or Jude wrote his, whichever was penned earlier, as they record for us that the angels that sinned are now bound.

Just to be clear......He is completely inactive? He is bound and inactive in respect to heaven and earth?

 

[Clayman]

That is not contextual. Daniel's fasting and praying were answered not by man but by God through an angel. Nor was the angel held up by a man possessed by the prince of Persia.

Ill try and explain again another way.

The rulers of the world.

1.Pharoah
2. The Assyrian
3. King of Babylon
4. king of Persia
5. king of Greece
6 King of Rome(or emperor)
7. combined Roman ruler?

Satan is also the ruler of the world, he at some stage indwelt or entered into the presence of these people. He also tried to rule Israel, when the leader of Israel Died and his eyes were still bright, he tried to enter into him.

Jude 9. But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Was it Cyrus the Prince of Persia at the time? And the Persians and Medes would have been about to march on Babylon, about the time of Daniel ch 10 (sorry history not my strong point and have forgotten)

Anyway my point is Michael ended up going to help against the Prince of Persia, And I can only speculate what that entailed but it seems to me Satan was the reason for the delay. If I had to guess for some reason you don't want it to be Satan they were fighting with?

 

[Clayman]

Just to be clear......He is completely inactive? He is bound and inactive in respect to heaven and earth?

Yes indeed, if you died right now now, you will go to heaven and you will not run into Satan anywhere there now or in the future, he is no longer accusing the saints before God day and night as I believe he is completely powerless and contained at the moment.

 

[Kroogz]

The first thought that comes to mind when I read this is that the spirit of God led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted for our benefit, it proves that Jesus even at His weakest cannot be tempted, as we already know God cannot sin it proves He is God too. They reckon the endurance of man can last about 40days with water and without food before he dies.

We have already failed the sin test, we are sinners, There is no need for Satan to test us, 1Cor 10:13 Also tells us this "No temptation has overtaken us except what is common to man" also we know God will not let us be tested beyond our strength, He always leaves a way out so we will endure.

I'm not sure why we have to witness to Satan how good we are, I think his problem may have been he knows we are not, Christ's grace and mercy should be the theme of our glorying, and I agree Christ is our example and naturally we will be become more and more Christ like as we walk in His will, as we run the race.

Being tested by satan is common to man. And what does it reveal to satan? Gods Grace and Mercy. That God was fair and Just in His judgement of satan. It's not about how good we are, it's about how good God is. He provides everything we need to go through the testing. He isn't going to allow a young believer to be tested as a mature believer. If one has the full armor of God on He will allow harder tests because that one can endure more.........and it Glorifies God, not the believer. It gives the believer more rewards to place at His feet.

I just had a quick glimpse of the link you provided, I have books that are very similar in my book case, and they are partly responsible for how people think nowadays and partly responsible for how I think, for reading them helped me see certain obvious errors.

For a start it proclaims that the war in heaven happened before our creation, and I don't ascribe to any gap theories, or long age views, It will also proclaim that the war was the reason for sin entering into our creation.

Yet scripture is quite plain, Adam was the first to sin and Adam brought sin into the world.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

I suppose if there is a bit in the book that you think is really good and pertains to why you think I'm wrong post it and Ill try and explain my position.

Eve was the first to sin. And your other books are not very similar, if you think it proclaims war in heaven brought sin in this world, mankind did.

 

[Kroogz]

While I agree with some of our postmil and amil brothers that Satan is currently bound(I see less of them hold that view now though) I don't agree with them in regards to the Messianic 1000yr period here.

To answer your question, I believe Satan was ruling the world until the time of Christ going to the cross, he was then cast out into the abyss, then in the future tribulation period, which I think is very soon, he will come up out of the pit, and rule the world again, and bring the worlds armies up to Jerusalem, then Christ returns and an angel grabs Satan and again binds him for 1000yrs.

Where Israel will rule the nations while dwelling in her land as promised to Abraham, with the added information here of for a period of 1000yrs

Just say if you a more detailed explanation with the verses and stuff be more than happy to show the reason for my timeline if you want,
Or fire away with any questions like what does it mean that he will deceive the nations no more during this period, Doesn't that prove he was deceiving the nations up until this point? Happy do delve into things

Oh yea, and yes I see Satan being cast into the pit twice, and released twice just as I see Christ coming twice.

If satan fell at the time of The Lord Jesus Christ's birth....Why was he twisting God's word and deceiving in the garden then? Why was he trying to get Job to curse God to His face?

 

[Kroogz]

Revelation 20:1-3
¶“1Next I saw an angel coming down from heaven. He held in his hand the key to the bottomless pit. He also held a great chain. 2The angel seized the dragon, who is the ancient serpent, the devil, also known as Satan. The angel bound him for a thousand years, 3throwing him into the great pit. The angel shut the pit and sealed it over the dragon. This was so the nations might not believe his lies anymore, until the thousand years were finished. After that he must be released for a little while.” (Revelation 20:1-3).

Why would John call satan the "ancient serpent" if he had just fallen a few years beforehand?