Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

[PeterJens]

Hi Peter,

I am not sure if you are aware but you do come across as if you are the holiest one and everyone else is a wolf. I do have to point out though that you never answer questions... you just come off with I am Holy and you are a wolf (in sheep clothing, (not wolves become sheep)).

I find it hard for you to say I am the holiest one, or that everyone else is a wolf.

By definition if I am talking about the people of God, I am suggesting the elect
are not wolves but sheep.

Secondly how am I saying I am the holiest one, when I do not talk about my
own behaviour but the principles behind what holiness and righteousness appears
to be.

If you think a wolf talks about walking like Christ, then scripture is a wolf to you.
Ofcourse to those who hold that no one can be truly purified, I understand this position.
But there are many throughout the churches who believe and follow like I do.

And to us love and truth is our goal.

 

[PeterJens]

in paragraph 3, peter loosely refers to himself as " elect ". then he speaks of humility, then wonders why he gets attacked. someone else want to try to explain this to him??

You guys are crazy. We are called to be of one mind, one desire to walk as Jesus walked,
to love, to be open hearted and humble. If we do not believe we are Gods children, sealed
by the Holy Spirit, acknowledging Christs work in our hearts, then we are empty people,
wondering aimlessly in our faith.

Paul calls us Gods Holy people, working as the body of Christ.

Now if you feel you are outside these very descriptions, I suggest you seek the Lords
face and desire His guidance and word.

 

[phil36]

Hi Peter,

I never said that you actually said you are the Holiest, but, that you come across that way, by suggesting others are wolves.

You get the point here:

If you think a wolf talks about walking like Christ

Thats the scriptural point...wolves dressed as sheep! however how do you come to the final conclusion escapes me.

If you think a wolf talks about walking like Christ, then scripture is a wolf to you.

Not only do wolves talk about walking like Christ they also act as if they do:

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Many people who claim to be he holiest may actually be the wolf acting like a sheep. Just a caution to us all.

 

[PeterJens]

I find it very telling that some of those that say we are to live godly lives in Christ ( which I agree with 100% ) are the every ones filled with malice and slander towards others in the body of Christ.

Malice and the slandering of others in the body of Christ is no different then living a homosexual lifestyle - they are in the same list of the works of the flesh. They all bring destruction to ourselves and those around us.

All very odd language.

Jesus called us to walk with pure hearts and to hunger and thirst for righteousness.
But take this as ones primary approach, and one is accused of hypocracy, condemnation,
malice.

These interactions are so strange, that honesty at such a basic level is missing.
And the reason is because they would loose.

 

[MattTooFor]

then they can do what they will with what I said.

Well, there you go then -- you're admitting to insulting me. No one on any side of this discussion would agree to being called a "works-based salvationist", therefore the intent is to insult and to be unpleasant. If you are presumptively labeling someone that way before the discussion is even completed...that is obviously inappropriate and impolite behavior on your part. No one in conservative Christianity believes in salvation by works.

 

[LaurenTM]

Please post Scripture proving that the term "twelve tribes" refers to the called out Christians in the nation of Israel.

nummm.......

why would I do that when I am not the one who postulated whatever it is you are attempting to say I said

those merry go round horses are unstable

 

[LaurenTM]

hmmm....I speak English and write it and actually have a pretty good grasp on the meaning of words

so...dunno...but there are either some really bad communicators in this thread or some fancy weaving in and out of consciousness going on

1. James is not legalistic

2. If you think he is legalistic, what have you done with the first chapter of Romans...Paul seems intent on conveying Gods' displeasure with SIN...missing the mark...gee...no grace there...actually, without Jesus, that pretty much sums up God's attitude to all of us...thumb's down

3. now here please pay special attention

works are not fruit...

if you don't believe me, read the NT with the intent of proving God right and not 440 youtube videos or 339 sites that say Paul is the Gentile preacher and we pick and choose what we like from what Jesus said

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law Galatians 5

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:5-8

see? not works


good works are what we do as a result of our faith in Christ and while they do not save us, God created us to do them

fruit....not works

works.....not fruit

fruit is INTERNAL change

works are EXTERNAL things we do

 

[fredoheaven]

Not to ride in anybody else, I believe in the OP as it says. We have eternal salvation that cannot be lose!

God bless all...

 

[MattTooFor]

Not to ride in anybody else, I believe in the OP as it says. We have eternal salvation that cannot be lose!

God bless all...

OK - staying on-topic...another extremely critical reason for having the correct "he who does the will of the Father, goes to heaven" doctrine (otherwise known as the "faith without works is dead" doctrine)...is because of what we face in the end times...when a decision with eternal implications will confront us:

Whether or not to cave in to the pressure of the "false prophets" and take the "mark of the beast" and thus go on to split the gates of Hell wide open...OR...whether to "stand firm to the end":

"Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one [i.e. the few] who endures to the end, he will be saved" (Matthew 24:12-13).

This is what some of you OSAS'ers ("once saved always saved") are not understanding: Notice in the above text, there are those of whom it actually can be said that 1) they formerly "loved" the Lord but 2) STOPPED loving the Lord - their faith grew "cold" and then 3) the text goes on to indicate that only the "one" (i.e. the few) who stands firm to the end...will be saved.

The obvious indication is that those whose "love grew cold" were NOT (as it turns out) genuine believers...were NOT (as it turns out) saved...and the text states they were deceived into betraying the faith and those OF the faith Matt.24:10)...and taking the "mark" (if you understand the prophetic context here).

This is considered unthinkable in the OSAS crowd. This is why I am absolutely convinced there will be many of this OSAS persuasion who will rationalize in those desperate moments: "hey, what's the worst that can happen if I take the mark of the beast? I already KNOW I'm saved. No biggie."

And then there will be a whole host of the current top most popular "Christian" leaders who will be cheering on this huge apostasy.

It is not that anyone "lost" their salvation (to address the OP's topic)...but that they were never genuine believers to begin with. This is where the 'fearful' process of "working out your salvation with fear and trembling" begins. The intense process of "examining yourself whether you are of the faith".

And again, the Olivet Discourse text states these tragic victims were convinced by the "false prophets"...wishy-washy teachers and preachers who have taken all of the "hell, fire and brimstone" out of their teachings and sermons. These de facto "false prophets" now predominate in conservative Christianity...and are peddling many false teachings.

 

[fredoheaven]

OK - staying on-topic...another extremely critical reason for having the correct "he who does the will of the Father, goes to heaven" doctrine (otherwise known as the "faith without works is dead" doctrine)...is because of what we face in the end times...when a decision with eternal implications will confront us:

Whether or not to cave in to the pressure of the "false prophets" and take the "mark of the beast" and thus go on to split the gates of Hell wide open...OR...whether to "stand firm to the end":

"Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one [i.e. the few] who endures to the end, he will be saved" (Matthew 24:12-13).

This is what some of you OSAS'ers ("once saved always saved") are not understanding: Notice in the above text, there are those of whom it actually can be said that 1) they formerly "loved" the Lord but 2) STOPPED loving the Lord - their faith grew "cold" and then 3) the text goes on to indicate that only the "one" (i.e. the few) who stands firm to the end...will be saved.

The obvious indication is that those whose "love grew cold" were NOT (as it turns out) genuine believers...were NOT (as it turns out) saved...and the text states they were deceived into betraying the faith and those OF the faith Matt.24:10)...and taking the "mark" (if you understand the prophetic context here).

Your No. 1 and 2 points do not directly refer to loving the Lord. The assumption is taking altogether that “the love of many” here is express only to the Lord, whereas the context expresses one’s love to others that is not to hate one another as indicated in verse 10. Matthew 24 or the Olivet discourse deals with the temple (Jews) and also the nation of Israel being hated by all nations (Gentile). This also speaks of the sorrow or the great trib. Of which this does not pertain to the grace of God in the dispensation of grace. This belongs in the next age when the saints of God have already been translated in the air. Further, this salvation pertains to the physical affliction as to be noted in verse 9 rather than the salvation of whom the OP speaks about. Here is the context for further study:

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Thank you.

 

[Grace777x70]

We are saved by grace through faith in what our Lord Jesus Christ has done for us because of His love and grace towards us.

This song has been song for a very long time because of the truth of it.


[video=youtube;bLZhQHuQQFE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLZhQHuQQFE[/video]

 

[PeterJens]

Amazing grace is that which changes an open heart, to learn how to carry pain,
and still love, because He who loved us, died for us in pain and agony so that we
might be free.

It is impossible to know Him without also knowing the pain within and allow others
to hurt us, carrying their sins in our hearts and forgiving them because we are
forgiven ourselves for our hurts done against others.

 

[phil36]

Amazing grace is that which changes an open heart, to learn how to carry pain,
and still love, because He who loved us, died for us in pain and agony so that we
might be free.

It is impossible to know Him without also knowing the pain within and allow others
to hurt us, carrying their sins in our hearts and forgiving them because we are
forgiven ourselves for our hurts done against others.

"Amazing grace that saved a wretch like me"

The unregenerate don't have an open heart:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10ff).


and

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.3 All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


It is impossible to know Him not because of our pain or hurts but because "All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. (Eph 2:3), and dead in sin...

God renews the heart and brings us to life..not because we have an already open heart because of our pains and hurts. You need to be born from above(John 3).

 

[PeterJens]

"Amazing grace that saved a wretch like me"

The unregenerate don't have an open heart:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10ff).

Having an open heart is about being open to influences that will change your
life.

It is not about whether sin dwells within you, or you walk in righteousness.
It is about being defensive or being honest about where you are.

Many know they are in a mess but not where to go to sort it out.

I have witnessed to people who were very open, and accepted the gospel.

When Jonah preached the people listened and repented. That is having an
open heart to a message.

You read too much in, and expect rejection where often there is none, just
a lack of understanding.

Why is an open heart so difficult to accept? Does it challenge something about you?

 

[PeterJens]

Why was Jesus rejected?

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
John 3:19

Loss of status, dealing with sin and hurt, facing who one really is, sacrificing
what is apparently gained on the altar of truth, not knowing the outcome.

Fear, pain, loss are all wrapped up in walking in the light and having an open
heart before God. Difficult stuff.

If you have ever tried to love a briar or thistle bush, you know it hurts, but to be
successful you have to go beyond.

I remember when I first had to declare my love for someone else, knowing it would
probably be rejected. It was more important to express my love than know the response,
because without the expression, love would never have life. But the price is the pain of
rejection, but more it is the life that comes from knowing what is truly in your heart and
that this has real value.

So I love Christ and His cross, whether people accept it or not, my love raises up to heaven
for such a gift and I thank Him with all I am, Amen.

 

[Jimbone]

From what I have read in the Bible and studied in theology, there are three historical positions on whether we can lose our salvation.

1. Arminianism They believe you can lose your salvation, if you walk away from God, or show no works that they have been saved, including repentance. This is a centuries old doctrine. You may agree or disagree. But I do not think you can call it a heresy. Methodism,(including the Salvation Army, which comes out of Methodism; most Pentecostals and charismatics believe this.

2. Eternal security - what I call the "Baptist" doctrine, since that is where I first learned of it. (Not saying everyone has to be a Baptist to believe in eternal security, that is just my label!) This is not Calvinism, but it is a doctrine which says, that once you are saved, God is going to keep you in his hands. And that God's love is so amazing, no one will walk away. I tend to this belief system. It is a little newer, but not a heresy. Also it is the viewpoint of the OP, apparently.

3. Calvinism - This is also an historical doctrine, followed by millions of people in the Reformed and Presbyterian churches. There are 5 points, and it includes the fact that God gives us the perseverance to continue to the end, which is quite Biblical. There are extreme Calvinists, called superlapsarianists, and they do not think they can know if they are saved till they die. Which is basically a Catholic doctrine. However, they are considered extremists.

4. Oops. Forgot about the Catholics. A system of works, whereby you are sanctified gradually into Justification. So you cannot ever know if you are saved, until you are "purified" in purgatory. In my opinion, although a billion Catholics may disagree, this is the one heresy, that simply has no Biblical support.

So, probably best if we examine the Scriptures, and determine what they say. I really detest long, closely spaced posts that are little more than rants. And I do believe in eternal security, just not the way this OP and subsequent posts by the OP were written. Again, the OP would be much better to write out himself what he believes, rather than these copy and pastes!

I tend to agree with you on #2. This is the closest to my experience, we are saved by Gods grace, through faith (or believing, which I found to be a MUCH bigger word after I was saved), and changes you from the inside out just like it says. You are now a new creature and indwelt by the Holy Spirit which enables you to do "good works". I do not think we are capable of anything "good" before this, the ONLY way we can even do "good" is through the power of God in us, and is why we get no credit and point ALL GLORY back to Jesus. This is also why these "good works" are the EVIDENCE of salvation, not the cause of it. If God has indwelt and made you a new creature it WILL result in these works, period.

As far as loosing salvation I do think it possible, although I personally could never see how anyone could turn from the Truth once they've seen it, like I said we have come to the same conclusion on that aspect. We are warned over and over to "watch" and "not be deceived", I take those warnings seriously and try to be a good Berean and search the scripture to avoid being deceived. I do not believe God takes our free will once we are saved so being deceived seems the only way I can see anyone losing it. Being tricked into giving it up willingly, however NO ONE can take it from you. That's how I've come to see it, so far anyway.[h=3][/h]

 

[phil36]

Having an open heart is about being open to influences that will change your
life.

It is not about whether sin dwells within you, or you walk in righteousness.
It is about being defensive or being honest about where you are.

Many know they are in a mess but not where to go to sort it out.

I have witnessed to people who were very open, and accepted the gospel.

When Jonah preached the people listened and repented. That is having an
open heart to a message.

You read too much in, and expect rejection where often there is none, just
a lack of understanding.

Why is an open heart so difficult to accept? Does it challenge something about you?

you miss what scripture is saying! eoples heart is only open to the gratifying of their own desires and evil influences.. read again:

All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. (Eph 2:3)

The only reason people become open in their hearts to the gospel truth is through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.. read again:

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

and:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast

Why did the people believe Jonah:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile...For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last(Romans 1:16-17a)

God uses His word as a means for people to hear the truth, the Holy Spirit regenerates the heart of those who will believe in order that they 'have ears to hear and eyes to see'.

I have n problem with someone having an open heart to the gospel truth, for it is by God's great mercy that anyone can have a heart open to Him. Your view is more Pelagian.

 

[PeterJens]

Why did the people believe Jonah:

God uses His word as a means for people to hear the truth, the Holy Spirit regenerates the heart of those who will believe in order that they 'have ears to hear and eyes to see'.

I have n problem with someone having an open heart to the gospel truth, for it is by God's great mercy that anyone can have a heart open to Him. Your view is more Pelagian.

I am not speaking theology, or is this God working, or is this free will speaking, I am saying
we need to walk with Jesus from the heart.

It strikes me some people do not believe this, to the extent, they are fearful of what is within.

I have lived with people with defended hearts, and equated this with being human and not
shutting Jesus out, so simply freezing at a particular point in life.

I have walked into families where an important member has died, yet the relationships appear
to still be as if the person is still there. So having an open heart and letting hurts and incidents
move us on, is not a religious issue or observation, it is a life issue, how we work as people.

Jesus is our deepest friend and should affect us to our core, is our foundation to who we are
in Christ. This is His amazing Grace, His gift of love.

All I am called to do, is to say Jesus as the vine, is our life blood, yet it sounds like this is not
everyones cry. So among the religious language and ideas, I call out, how you let Gods word
dwell within you matters, it defines what you will become. Believe and have faith and trust in
His leading.

Pelagianism would be people can be moral outside of communion with God, which I would never
accept. I could theorise, but it does not work.

But suggesting this makes me wonder why an open heart is something you do not like?

 

[gb9]

Amazing grace is that which changes an open heart, to learn how to carry pain,
and still love, because He who loved us, died for us in pain and agony so that we
might be free.

It is impossible to know Him without also knowing the pain within and allow others
to hurt us, carrying their sins in our hearts and forgiving them because we are
forgiven ourselves for our hurts done against others.

this has to be one of the most un-biblical things I have ever read. the word of God has NOTHING to do with how we " feel ". this is new-age garbage. God cares about what we BELIEVE, not how we feel. do you believe in His Son, and him crucified. and resurrected . that Is what God cares about, not about how we " feel ".

 

[FreeNChrist]

"Amazing grace that saved a wretch like me"

The unregenerate don't have an open heart:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10ff).


and

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.3 All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


It is impossible to know Him not because of our pain or hurts but because "All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. (Eph 2:3), and dead in sin...

God renews the heart and brings us to life..not because we have an already open heart because of our pains and hurts. You need to be born from above(John 3).

Charles Spurgeon disagrees that the sinner must be regenerated before he can believe:


"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners."