Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

[dcontroversal]

by their own words do they condemn themselves...I never called them sinners, they confess with their own mouth that they are sinners, so am I to assume they are lying, I don't know.. and some even want to call holy men and women in the bible sinners....Ezekiel said that was an abomination,
Danile and Job were delivered by their own righteousness, yet they say none can be righteous, and its even a greater sin to try and be righteous, and even if you can then you don't need Jesus. These vain contentions are so childish. Nothing they say makes any biblical since..Jesus said, they say no one be can be holy.

You tell them the cure to their sin problem is to crucify the passions and desires of the flesh with great zeal in repentance like Paul said in 2 Cor 7-11, and they deem you filled with of hate speech coming to spoil their sin party. They believe in sin less management 12 step programs, and promise keeper rallies, that quickly die after the euphoria, hype and glitter is over...Not one of them will even dare to addresses 2 Cor. 7-11,they wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole, that scripture is blackout with a marker in their bibles..Paul preached the goodness and severity of God that he have no blood on his hands, they only preach the goodness of God and omit the severity if God is disobeyed..Who am I to believe, the scriptures, or the promises of vain men who look for strength in numbers and gang stalk anyone who speaks of righteousness? Noah stood aloof and cared not about strength in numbers. Those numbers, nickels, and noses were swept away in the flood, and today the flood of lies covers the whole earth....They don't want to hear "put away all filthiness, and receive the engrafted word that can save your soul and make NO PROVISION for the lustful desires of the flesh". They call it hate speech...truly amazing that the turned the scriptures upside down good is evil, and evil is good...My, my!!

PANTS a little hot there pal....Does lying qualify one for hell as you put it?

Peter: Its because they are forever learning but NEVER coming to the knowledge of the truth therefore they remain in their sin thinking they are saved,

Oh when those sinners, oh when those sinners, oh when those sinners go marching in? Is that how that song goes? Makes one wonder at times...One would have to ask; if they could stop sinning would they even want to?

 

[FranC]

Bible-Discussion is much worse than what goes on here. Thank you for staying and contending for the faith!

Hey MMD

Isn't THIS Bible Discussion??
Stop confusing me, please!

 

[FranC]

PANTS a little hot there pal....Does lying qualify one for hell as you put it?

Peter: Its because they are forever learning but NEVER coming to the knowledge of the truth therefore they remain in their sin thinking they are saved,

Oh when those sinners, oh when those sinners, oh when those sinners go marching in? Is that how that song goes? Makes one wonder at times...One would have to ask; if they could stop sinning would they even want to?

Hang in there dcontroversal.
I have a message for you and Grace777.

Be back soon...

 

[FranC]

I assume you are referring to grace 7's post #1133 where he said " the whole doctrine of losing one's salvation when they are in Christ is demonically inspired and has done more harm......... "

peter, this is not saying that " Christ teachings are from demons " not, not not saying that. he meant that the teaching that one can lose salvation is inspired by evil

you were dead wrong of accusing and then slandering him for this. you owe him an apology. if you are " pure, holy, righteous " the way you say you are, you will give him one. because that is what God's people do. they are honest, truthful, and admit when they make mistakes.

Oh my.

Grace777 calls my ideas demonically inspired, and those of Peter Jens,
and yet Peter Jens owes HIM an apology?

I think I need another cup of coffee...

 

[dcontroversal]

Hang in there dcontroversal.
I have a message for you and Grace777.

Be back soon...

Great--->You are finally going to acknowledge eternal security and the validity of the scriptures....

 

[mailmandan]

Hey MMD

Isn't THIS Bible Discussion??
Stop confusing me, please!

Although we have Bible discussions here, this is the "Christian Chat" website and not the "Bible-Discussion" website that I was talking about.

 

[mailmandan]

Oh my.

Grace777 calls my ideas demonically inspired, and those of Peter Jens,
and yet Peter Jens owes HIM an apology?

I think I need another cup of coffee...

As gb9 pointed out - he said, "the whole doctrine of losing one's salvation when they are in Christ is demonically inspired." I've heard many people in the NOSAS camp call the OSAS doctrine "a lie from the pits of hell" which would be the same thing as calling it demonically inspired.

 

[PeterJens]

I assume you are referring to grace 7's post #1133 where he said " the whole doctrine of losing one's salvation when they are in Christ is demonically inspired and has done more harm......... "

peter, this is not saying that " Christ teachings are from demons " not, not not saying that. he meant that the teaching that one can lose salvation is inspired by evil

you were dead wrong of accusing and then slandering him for this. you owe him an apology. if you are " pure, holy, righteous " the way you say you are, you will give him one. because that is what God's people do. they are honest, truthful, and admit when they make mistakes.

I am referring to an idea that if you take one position in faith over another,
because in the Lord you see it this way, and another sees it another way
this is not "demon" inspired but an outworking of ones understanding and walk
with the Lord.

Christ obviously taught from the outside people rise up in great joy at the gospel
but later fall away.

We see this throughout the church.
I will not build a theology around this, but say those that walk with Christ walk with
Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

As gb9 pointed out - he said, "the whole doctrine of losing one's salvation when they are in Christ is demonically inspired." I've heard many people in the NOSAS camp call the OSAS doctrine "a lie from the pits of hell" which would be the same thing as calling it demonically inspired.

What is tragic and never addressed by those who deny the eternal security found in Christ is found in the following obviously deduced truths...

a. IF it could be lost Hebrews states it could never be regained
b. JESUS said there was NO ONE GOOD while he walked the earth with SAVED, IMMERSED disciples identified as a church no less that twice in the present tense.
c. IF none are good and as JOHN states NONE are above sin then how could one earn, keep salvation (1 sin = death)

BY their own doctrine they have confessed the following...either...

a. THEY are PERFECT, NEVER SIN, ALWAYS DO WHAT IS RIGHT and their righteousness exceeds that of JESUS
b. THEY are lost because they have been saved and then lost it...see a thru c above
c. THEY have never lost it, but we have because we believe in ETERNAL SECURITY
d. THEY are blind to the truth concerning eternal security

THERE are no other possibilities.....NO ONE is good enough to have earned it, much less keep it....and if it can be lost...heaven will be empty for the most part and almost ALL if not ALL are destined for the lake of fire....!

 

[blue_ladybug]

Well, THIS escalated quickly.. lol

 

[willybob]

Oh my.

Grace777 calls my ideas demonically inspired, and those of Peter Jens,
and yet Peter Jens owes HIM an apology?

I think I need another cup of coffee...

pretty amazing no? they cry help, murder, police, don't do that, ill get you!!! all the while condemning themselves with their own pronounced condition and theology...

 

[willybob]

makes one wonder how Cain was told by God that he could rule over the lustful passions and desires of the flesh, but Christians having the Holy Spirit AND the engrafted word of the testimony of Christ cannot....great mystery to me......

 

[PeterJens]

you were dead wrong of accusing and then slandering him for this. you owe him an apology.

I can read. I have not accused anyone of anything.
I have commented on the tendency to put demons alongside certain positions, and I do not
agree with this.

I am also observing stirring up antagonism and then claiming others are creating antagonism,
hatred and malice, is self destructive and a lie, and will bring ones own house down on oneself.

It is up to contributors to decide who is doing what and whether they hold it is good or bad
So I cannot apologize for something I have not done. And this comment itself is an example
of provocation with no foundation, trying to create a sense of guilt where there is none.

And truly, if I have sinned I will repent and get right with God and the person concerned.
But it somewhat backfires if you are the sinner sinning against me. Want to apologise for
a false accusation? I forgive you anyway, because that is what love calls me to do, my
friend.

 

[PeterJens]

makes one wonder how Cain was told by God that he could rule over the lustful passions and desires of the flesh, but Christians having the Holy Spirit AND the engrafted word of the testimony of Christ cannot....great mystery to me......

The warning at the end of the sermon on the mount is addressed to evil-doers.
Now if you claim authority in Christ to heal and bring miracles and wonders to earth,
and your theology says believers should expect to be evil-doers without any resolution,
where is the failure to connect that this is exactly what Jesus is rejecting.

The rejection of the pharisees was always about their show but with no mercy, love,
reality, but full of self indulgence and greed. And who defends people with great wealth
ambition to indulge in great luxury and that God will provide this dream if you throw money
at the preacher. It is so obviously a deception, but greed and ambition blinds them.

And their defence is we are jealous and envious of their success. This is so odd, because
I care very little for money, but greatly to find the ways of God in my life.

 

[gb9]

I can read. I have not accused anyone of anything.
I have commented on the tendency to put demons alongside certain positions, and I do not
agree with this.

I am also observing stirring up antagonism and then claiming others are creating antagonism,
hatred and malice, is self destructive and a lie, and will bring ones own house down on oneself.

It is up to contributors to decide who is doing what and whether they hold it is good or bad
So I cannot apologize for something I have not done. And this comment itself is an example
of provocation with no foundation, trying to create a sense of guilt where there is none.

And truly, if I have sinned I will repent and get right with God and the person concerned.
But it somewhat backfires if you are the sinner sinning against me. Want to apologise for
a false accusation? I forgive you anyway, because that is what love calls me to do, my
friend.

you can read?? apparently not, because if you could, you would see grace7 did not say what you and others are claiming. you, fran, and willybob owe him an apology. this is pure slander.

I have done nothing for you to forgive, except point out truth. sorry you do not like it.

 

[willybob]

The warning at the end of the sermon on the mount is addressed to evil-doers.
Now if you claim authority in Christ to heal and bring miracles and wonders to earth,
and your theology says believers should expect to be evil-doers without any resolution,
where is the failure to connect that this is exactly what Jesus is rejecting.

The rejection of the pharisees was always about their show but with no mercy, love,
reality, but full of self indulgence and greed. And who defends people with great wealth
ambition to indulge in great luxury and that God will provide this dream if you throw money
at the preacher. It is so obviously a deception, but greed and ambition blinds them.

And their defence is we are jealous and envious of their success. This is so odd, because
I care very little for money, but greatly to find the ways of God in my life.

What is perceived to be as Christianity which has in popularity seemed to have replaced the Christian faith once delivered to the saints (steadfast fidelity to God form pure heart) is actually Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots...Money and the gospel don't mix....Once money comes into the equation truth MUST be compromised, for numbers, nickels, and noses....The merchandisers of the gospel have to bring them in while still in their sin and pronounced them saved. There is no money in the real gospel because it doesn't tickle their ears.....

 

[FranC]

What is tragic and never addressed by those who deny the eternal security found in Christ is found in the following obviously deduced truths...

a. IF it could be lost Hebrews states it could never be regained
b. JESUS said there was NO ONE GOOD while he walked the earth with SAVED, IMMERSED disciples identified as a church no less that twice in the present tense.
c. IF none are good and as JOHN states NONE are above sin then how could one earn, keep salvation (1 sin = death)

BY their own doctrine they have confessed the following...either...

a. THEY are PERFECT, NEVER SIN, ALWAYS DO WHAT IS RIGHT and their righteousness exceeds that of JESUS
b. THEY are lost because they have been saved and then lost it...see a thru c above
c. THEY have never lost it, but we have because we believe in ETERNAL SECURITY
d. THEY are blind to the truth concerning eternal security

THERE are no other possibilities.....NO ONE is good enough to have earned it, much less keep it....and if it can be lost...heaven will be empty for the most part and almost ALL if not ALL are destined for the lake of fire....!

dcontroversal
I'm going to answer point by point. I sure hope you really read my reply.

a.
You must be referring to Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 6:6
This is one of the mistakes many make in reading the N.T. and coming up with their own beliefs. Theologians know about this and I'll bet you do too.

You cannot take ONE VERSE or even a few verses and make a Whole doctrine around it. The N.T. is INSPIRED, God didn't sit at a typewriter and write it word for word. We're not even sure Paul wrote Hebrews, for instance. That a person who FALLS AWAY could NOT be regenerated is said no where else in the N.T. Therefore, we cannot make doctrine out of it.
God will Always take us back. Not doubt about it. Even if we abandon Him, and these verses show that we could, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins. 1 John 1

b.
I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. Of course no one is good. Only our Father in heaven is good.

c.
One does not earn salvation. It is a free gift, that none should boast. Ephesians 2:8
This is Justification.

However, one must keep his salvation. This is Sanctification. A cooperative effort between man and God made possible by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

It's like this. You get the girl. But then you have to keep the girl. Same thing. Try getting a girl and doing nothing and see how long it lasts. And don't tell me God is different. We are MADE IN HIS IMAGE in different ways. One of them is socially.

Then you say:
BY their own doctrine they have confessed the following...either...


a.
Impossible.

b.
see explanation above, c
You don't "lose" salvation. You abandon God and give it up yourself by your own will.
To bet it back, you return to God -

c.
You don't lose salvation because you believe in an incorrect doctrine. We'd all be lost.

d.
We each think the other side is blind. Normal. (of course, YOUR side is blind!!!)

OK. I've answered everything.

But I don't get your point.
But OK.

 

[FranC]

As gb9 pointed out - he said, "the whole doctrine of losing one's salvation when they are in Christ is demonically inspired." I've heard many people in the NOSAS camp call the OSAS doctrine "a lie from the pits of hell" which would be the same thing as calling it demonically inspired.

MMD
I respect you and am answering your post to me for that reason alone.
Because I did not initiate any slandering or name-calling ... it's just not my style.

WHEN someone tells me that MY view is demonic, I will answer and say that I believe the OSAS is more so
because it tends to not allow persons to be on guard of all the instructions Jesus left us with.

However, it's not my habit to insult or even talk about hell or satan or demons.
I do believe Grace777 must know this about me.

 

[BillG]

As gb9 pointed out - he said, "the whole doctrine of losing one's salvation when they are in Christ is demonically inspired." I've heard many people in the NOSAS camp call the OSAS doctrine "a lie from the pits of hell" which would be the same thing as calling it demonically inspired.

Been there and experienced it. In fact I'm surprised I wasn't given the t-shirt that said

"You believe in OSAS, then you will be walking into hell along with all those espouse your evil doctrine to"

Yet they neglect to ask me why. They just quote bible verses to back up thier position whilst ignoring what I could could quote.

I am by no means a greasy gracer. I certainly do not beleive that OSAS gives us licence to sin, do what we want and turn around and say "It's ok I'm forgiven"

In my experience I have known people who walk like this, it horrifies me. I have pulled such people aside and have talked to them. I knew one person who was sleeping with his girlfriend who had this attitude of "God knows I'm a sinner, knows I will sleep with my girfriend so I'm forgiven" at times he tried not to but still did but the attitude was the same.

I just do not get that mentality. We do need wisdome though to determine why people do what they do.

I will hopefully give brief experience concerning me.

I was active in church, led youth group in the church.
I suffered severe anxiety and had a very bad gambling problem.
This overtook me in the and I stopped going to church for about 12 years.

The severe anxiety in the main was caused as a result of at the age of 14 being thrown out by my mum and fostered by a Christian couple.

For the next 5 years my foster dad tried every night to sexually abuse me.
Gambling was my escape and also my snare. I would find myself gambling without actually realising I was. All of a sudden I was in a gambling place, in my own little world. And just so you know I was as miserable whether I won or lost.

No one other than my wife knew this.

I prayed so many times for healing from both and it never came.
Fear and guilt overtook me and as I said stopped going to church.

During that 12 year period no one tried to come alongside me.

I suppose the NOSAS would say their thoughts were right. I'd left church and was no longer part of the church and would be in hell.

What I would like to say is this.

For 12 years I cried every day, I called out to God. I woke up every night at the same time, 2 a.m. tears rolling down my cheeks.
Begging God to forgive me, imploring him to heal me and release me. I even got to the stage where I prayed "God take my life tonight so I know where I am going, I know you will take care of my wife and 4 kids, please put me out of my misery"

I don't think I ever lost my faith or walked away from God and rejected him, even though I stopped going to church.

Praise God and as I type this tears fill my eyes, through 1 person (new pastor in the church)who did come to visit me, loved me where I was at, did not condemn my gambling and was kind and gentle with me and he walked with me.

I came to the place where God walked with me to forgive my abuser, this was proven to me that I had forgiven him when I prayed with him on his death bed and took care of his estate.

I praise God that when I trusted him to help me forgive my abuser he then healed me of my gambling. When I fully put gambling in his hands and as he healed me from the sexual abuse and forgive my abuser my escape and snare was gone.

I have not even had the urge to gamble for the last 5 years.

So what am I trying to say?

Whichever camp you are in let's not be quick to judge. And certainly not put your brother/sister down and be compentable to them. They are your family, Jesus loves them as much as loves you, also Jesus said that our Father loves us all as much as he him.

If you see someone sinning come alongside, if you see someone missing seek them out.
Be like Jesus.

People need healing, some need teaching and reproof.
Be loving like Jesus but also firm like Jesus.
We need to ask for his wisdom.

Do not assume if someone is walking in the works of the flesh is doing so because they don't give two hoots, maybe they do.
If they don't then maybe it's time to ask them "Do you really beleive? Do you know the price that has been paid?

Just my two pence worth.

 

[Susanna]

People ougtha not be labelling others beliefs demonic etc..it's like saying your neighbor is Satan.