Eternal torment VS Annihilation

[JesusLives]

Really!? They're eternally gone? Who are all of those people who are resurrected and are released from Hades after the thousand years have ended and are judged at the great white throne judgment? Scripture states that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. But how could that be if when the wicked die, the cease to exist?

Life and death are both states of eternal existence based on ones status with God. Death does not mean nonexistence, but complete loss of well being, ruination.

Life = never ending existence in the joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God

Death = Never ending existence in separation from God in the lake of fire

As I have made know so many times before, the words "apollumi and apoleia" translated as "destroy" and "perish" are not defined as annihilation or extinction. Below is an excerpt from the definition of the these words:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction (apoleia), and many enter through it.


"684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being

When Jesus returns to the earth via Second coming in the clouds the wicked cry for the rocks and mountains to fall on them and die at Jesus coming, satan and his evil angels are bound to the earth for a thousand years while the righteous are raised from the dead and the righteous living are caught up in the clouds to go to heaven for a thousand years.

While we are in heaven the books will be open for the righteous to see how the judgement of God played out and why the wicked were lost as the Bible says don't you know that one day you will judge angels.
( 1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! )

Not so much that we judge them but how and why God judged them (angels) and the wicked. Jesus is our High Priest and advocate before the Father now as it is described in Hebrews. Because Jesus was our sacrifice and is worthy to be our High Priest.

After the 1000 years ends we will come back to earth and the wicked will be raised to life to receive their final punishment. This is where the verse in the Bible plays out that every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. They will be thrown into the lake of fire and the final thing to be thrown in to the Lake of Fire is death. Meaning only the righteous will have eternal life because God gave it to them as their reward the wicked are burned up and when the fuel burns up the fire goes out but it will be eternal fire just as Sodom and Gomorrah was because the people are dead and gone and there is no fire burning in that location at this time but it doesn't mean that it isn't eternally gone because Sodom and Gomorrah is no more - it's gone and the people that lived there are DEAD...

Eternal is burned, dead an gone forever.

 

[JesusLives]

Why are you confusing eternal torment with eternal life?

God did not say EXTINCTION, ANNIHILATION, OR VAPORIZATION.

How do people manage to confuse themselves so seriously when the Bible is plain and clear?

You are right God said the Wages of sin is DEATH.

 

[Jackson123]

God did not promise eternal life to the wicked God said the wages of sin is DEATH. When they are burned up they will be eternally gone forever punished and DEAD.

How about this verse

Matthew 25:41 King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Nehemiah6]

You are right God said the Wages of sin is DEATH.

Keeping digging until you arrive at the meaning of "the second death".

 

[Ahwatukee]

When Jesus returns to the earth via Second coming in the clouds the wicked cry for the rocks and mountains to fall on them and die at Jesus coming, satan and his evil angels are bound to the earth for a thousand years while the righteous are raised from the dead and the righteous living are caught up in the clouds to go to heaven for a thousand years.

The event where the inhabitants of the earth flee to the caves and call and for the mountains and the rocks to fall upon them, takes place at the opening of the 6th seal and not when Jesus returns to the earth. Following the 6th seal will be the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgments. It is after the 7th bowl has been poured out that Jesus returns to the earth. It is at this time when Satan and his angels will be thrown into the Abyss and not bound on the earth. The fact is that, the scripture does not say that Satan is bound one the earth, but in the Abyss, which is under the earth. Also, you are correct in that the righteous will be raised. However, it will not be the church that is raised at that time but the great tribulation saints. The church will have been raised and caught up before the first seal is opened.

While we are in heaven the books will be open for the righteous to see how the judgement of God played out and why the wicked were lost as the Bible says don't you know that one day you will judge angels.

The books being opened takes place at the end of the thousand years at the great white throne judgment. The church is not judged at that judgment, but will have been judged at the Bema seat of Christ after being resurrected and caught up.

After the 1000 years ends we will come back to earth and the wicked will be raised to life to receive their final punishment.

Again, we don't come back to the earth at the end of the thousand years, but will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses when He returns to end the age which is at the beginning of the thousand years. In support of this, in the letter to the Thyatira church Jesus said those who overcome He will give authority over the nations and that they will rule them with an iron scepter. The time that the Lord is speaking about when believers rule with Him is during the millennial kingdom, not at the end of it.

Meaning only the righteous will have eternal life because God gave it to them as their reward. The wicked are burned up and when the fuel burns up the fire goes out but it will be eternal fire.

Scripture does not support your claim above. The lake of fire is also referred to as "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." If the fire goes out as you say, then it could not be called everlasting fire. The everlasting part is in reference to those who are punished in it. In addition, scripture states that the fire will never go out, as revealed below:

"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Those whose names are not found written in the book of life will suffer the same fate as the beast, false prophet, Satan and his angels. And as it is stated above, those in the lake of fire will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Just fyi, one would have to be conscious and existing in order to experience being tormented day and night forever and ever. The words "day and night and forever ever and ever" support the plain literal meaning of there being no ending to their punishment.

just as Sodom and Gomorrah was because the people are dead and gone and there is no fire burning in that location at this time but it doesn't mean that it isn't eternally gone because Sodom and Gomorrah is no more - it's gone and the people that lived there are DEAD...

Eternal is burned, dead an gone forever.

The above was referring to Sodom and Gomorrah being burned with fire as an example of those who will suffer a similar fate, except that it will be eternal in the lake of fire.

 

[Crustyone]

Thank you Karraster. I've written the references in my notes. Now if I can find them again when needed.LOL

Nehemiah6, In the OT the phrase, "not be quenched", is used for the fire of the Lake of Fire in Isaiah 66:24 and for the Lord's anger that will be against Juda and Jerusalem in Jeremiah 7:20 and for the fire that destroyed the forest to the south in Ezekiel 20:47-48. These last two obviously have gone out after consuming what was to be consumed with no one able to quench them. Therefore the fire in the Lake of Fire must be the same kind of fire. Unquenchable until it has consumed what it was meant to.

 

[tourist]

He sort of did. [Psalm 37:20 (But the wicked will perish: Though the Lord’s enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.)] (This verse and the above verse in post #477 are both from the New International Version bible) It says to me that they will be burned up and disappear into smoke.

Consumed is the key word.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thank you Karraster. I've written the references in my notes. Now if I can find them again when needed.LOL

Nehemiah6, In the OT the phrase, "not be quenched", is used for the fire of the Lake of Fire in Isaiah 66:24 and for the Lord's anger that will be against Juda and Jerusalem in Jeremiah 7:20 and for the fire that destroyed the forest to the south in Ezekiel 20:47-48. These last two obviously have gone out after consuming what was to be consumed with no one able to quench them. Therefore the fire in the Lake of Fire must be the same kind of fire. Unquenchable until it has consumed what it was meant to.

Greetings Crustyone,

If the above was true, then everlasting fire wouldn't be everlasting or unquenchable. We also have direct scriptures with supporting words that demonstrate unending torment in the lake of fire, as can be deduced from the scripture below:

"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

In Revelation 19:20, we see that as Christ returns to the earth to end the age, that the beast and false prophet are both captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire, which takes place at the beginning of the thousand years. During that same thousand years, Satan will have been imprisoned in the Abyss. At the end of the thousand years he is released and performs one last rebellion and is then thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown a thousand years earlier. If you will notice in the scripture above it says "they," i.e. the beast, false prophet and Satan will be tormented day and night forever and ever, which demonstrates that though the beast and the false prophet were thrown in a thousand years earlier, during that time they were in torment in flame and will continue in that torment along with Satan. The words which support on-going, never ending torment are "day and night and forever and ever." The reader cannot derive the meaning of annihilation or extinction from this scripture.

Everyone's name that is not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer the same never ending conscious torment that the beast, false prophet and Satan suffer and that because anyone who did not receive Christ while alive was following Satan by default.

"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

The above scripture above is in context regarding the sheep and the goats judgement, but the same fate awaits all whose names are not found written in the book of life at the great white throne judgment.

The words Unquenchable, everlasting, forever and ever, eternal and no rest day or night, meaning exactly that, no cessation or intermission of said torment. That they will be tormented day and night forever and ever, is also said regarding those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark.

We have a myriad of people who have committed suicide obviously because their thinking was that they would cease to exist once they killed themselves. Because of this, we already have people who are already demonstrating that being annihilated or becoming extinct as being ok with them. Therefore, if God's punishment was just being thrown into the lake of fire and being completely burned up, I'm sure that many people would be ok with that. However, when scripture makes it eternal, conscious separation from God in the lake of fire, then that becomes and issue! For I'm pretty sure that no one would be okay with that outcome.

Just as with the rich man who said to father Abraham "I am in torment in this flame" and which he currently still is, everyone's name not found written in the book of life will suffer the same fate in Hades and eventually the lake of fire.

 

[JesusLives]

The event where the inhabitants of the earth flee to the caves and call and for the mountains and the rocks to fall upon them, takes place at the opening of the 6th seal and not when Jesus returns to the earth. Following the 6th seal will be the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgments. It is after the 7th bowl has been poured out that Jesus returns to the earth. It is at this time when Satan and his angels will be thrown into the Abyss and not bound on the earth. The fact is that, the scripture does not say that Satan is bound one the earth, but in the Abyss, which is under the earth. Also, you are correct in that the righteous will be raised. However, it will not be the church that is raised at that time but the great tribulation saints. The church will have been raised and caught up before the first seal is opened.



The books being opened takes place at the end of the thousand years at the great white throne judgment. The church is not judged at that judgment, but will have been judged at the Bema seat of Christ after being resurrected and caught up.



Again, we don't come back to the earth at the end of the thousand years, but will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses when He returns to end the age which is at the beginning of the thousand years. In support of this, in the letter to the Thyatira church Jesus said those who overcome He will give authority over the nations and that they will rule them with an iron scepter. The time that the Lord is speaking about when believers rule with Him is during the millennial kingdom, not at the end of it.



Scripture does not support your claim above. The lake of fire is also referred to as "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." If the fire goes out as you say, then it could not be called everlasting fire. The everlasting part is in reference to those who are punished in it. In addition, scripture states that the fire will never go out, as revealed below:

"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Those whose names are not found written in the book of life will suffer the same fate as the beast, false prophet, Satan and his angels. And as it is stated above, those in the lake of fire will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Just fyi, one would have to be conscious and existing in order to experience being tormented day and night forever and ever. The words "day and night and forever ever and ever" support the plain literal meaning of there being no ending to their punishment.



The above was referring to Sodom and Gomorrah being burned with fire as an example of those who will suffer a similar fate, except that it will be eternal in the lake of fire.

Malachi 4:
The Great Day of the LORD

1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.”

2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, and you will go out and leap like calves from the stall. 3Then you will trample the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing,” says the LORD of Hosts.

How can they still be burning when God says they will be ashes under our feet?

 

[JesusLives]

How about this verse

Matthew 25:41 King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

See posts about Sodom and Gomorrah and eternal fire.

 

[Karraster]

Thank you Karraster. I've written the references in my notes. Now if I can find them again when needed.LOL

Nehemiah6, In the OT the phrase, "not be quenched", is used for the fire of the Lake of Fire in Isaiah 66:24 and for the Lord's anger that will be against Juda and Jerusalem in Jeremiah 7:20 and for the fire that destroyed the forest to the south in Ezekiel 20:47-48. These last two obviously have gone out after consuming what was to be consumed with no one able to quench them. Therefore the fire in the Lake of Fire must be the same kind of fire. Unquenchable until it has consumed what it was meant to.

You're welcome Crustyone. I agree with you, up in smoke, consumed, ashes. Nothing left. I believe our Almighty Creator is the eternal fire, sometimes that fire described as glory. Could it be? It makes absolute sense to me, He is the eternal, we are not. His fire will never go out, but we will be able to stand before Him if we are properly clothed. If we are not properly clothed it is too bad. Rev.16;15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

 

[Jackson123]

See posts about Sodom and Gomorrah and eternal fire.

So you believe when God say eternal mean temporary?

I believe God is not liar. When He say eternal mean eternal

 

[Ahwatukee]

So you believe when God say eternal mean temporary?

I believe God is not liar. When He say eternal mean eternal

Well said Jackson! It seems that they have forgotten what the words, eternal, everlasting and forever and ever mean.

I'm confident that if God wanted to convey the meaning of temporary punishment that He would have no problem doing so. For example in the following scriptures Jesus could have said:

"And the wicked will go away into temporary punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Or

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to temporary punishment, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."

But instead, because they have been deceived by the teachings of men, they ignore the words eternal, everlasting and forever and ever, attempting to change them to mean annihilation or temporary punishment. The same deception that Satan sold to Eve in the garden, is still be sold today. And people are still believing the same lie! This abandonment of the truth of God's word has been prophesied of:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

 

[Jackson123]

Well said Jackson! It seems that they have forgotten what the words, eternal, everlasting and forever and ever mean.

I'm confident that if God wanted to convey the meaning of temporary punishment that He would have no problem doing so. For example in the following scriptures Jesus could have said:

"And the wicked will go away into temporary punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Or

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to temporary punishment, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."

But instead, because they have been deceived by the teachings of men, they ignore the words eternal, everlasting and forever and ever, attempting to change them to mean annihilation or temporary punishment. The same deception that Satan sold to Eve in the garden, is still be sold today. And people are still believing the same lie! This abandonment of the truth of God's word has been prophesied of:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

Yep, event me, ordinary person, not a smart person, know that If I want to say temporary, not going to say eternal.

Some people try to prove God is liar by show us when God say to punish sodom forever and the fire in sodom not forever.

The fire in the city of sodom not forever, but the fire that punish people of sodom is forever in hell

 

[garee]

Well said Jackson! It seems that they have forgotten what the words, eternal, everlasting and forever and ever mean.

I'm confident that if God wanted to convey the meaning of temporary punishment that He would have no problem doing so. For example in the following scriptures Jesus could have said:

"And the wicked will go away into temporary punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Or

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to temporary punishment, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."

But instead, because they have been deceived by the teachings of men, they ignore the words eternal, everlasting and forever and ever, attempting to change them to mean annihilation or temporary punishment. The same deception that Satan sold to Eve in the garden, is still be sold today. And people are still believing the same lie! This abandonment of the truth of God's word has been prophesied of:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

Or the wicked will suffer the temporal punishment of living in a body of death without Christ our Sabbath rest and when they die they will not rise to new spirit life, but the righteous into eternal life." The punishment Cain could not bear ,The one Christ did bear...a living suffering hell

Words, eternal, everlasting and forever and ever mean never to rise again to new spirit life. .we need to visit the foundation of doctrines. When God said you will die. . . . the process began when they experienced doing the will of another (seen)

The glory of God departed. and we are seeing the death of a creation as the wrath in Romans 1 . The final wrath will be when he tosses the bottomless source of judgment, death in the fire of judgement …….its smoke as the letter of the law rises never to rise to condemn ever again forever more.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The idea of God corrupting the flesh but somehow not the source of the flesh the spirit essence of life is not a biblical teaching...

 

[JesusLives]

So you believe when God say eternal mean temporary?

I believe God is not liar. When He say eternal mean eternal

I also believe God is not a liar when he said the wages of sin is DEATH.

 

[JesusLives]

Well said Jackson! It seems that they have forgotten what the words, eternal, everlasting and forever and ever mean.

I'm confident that if God wanted to convey the meaning of temporary punishment that He would have no problem doing so. For example in the following scriptures Jesus could have said:

"And the wicked will go away into temporary punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Or

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to temporary punishment, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."

But instead, because they have been deceived by the teachings of men, they ignore the words eternal, everlasting and forever and ever, attempting to change them to mean annihilation or temporary punishment. The same deception that Satan sold to Eve in the garden, is still be sold today. And people are still believing the same lie! This abandonment of the truth of God's word has been prophesied of:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

How to you explain away God saying the wages of sin is DEATH?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I also believe God is not a liar when he said the wages of sin is DEATH.

Yeah, the problem with your statement above is that you are interpreting the state of death as nonexistence, but this is not what the whole of scripture teaches regarding death. If you and others did not turn the rich man and Lazarus into a parable, then you would understand that the rich man, who was dead, that his spirit was conscious and in torment in the flames of Hades just as the scripture states. However when you change these into parables, you lose the plain literal meaning and then yell for proof. It would beg you to ask the question as to how two men who were said to have died can be conscious and aware after the death of their bodies, with one in a place of comfort and the other in a place of torment in flame.

Like eternal life, death is a also a state of eternal, conscious existence in separation from God. As I have posted so many times, the words "apoleia/apollumi" which are translated as "destruction/perish" does not imply annihilation or extinction. It states that fact right in the definition. But you pay no attention to these facts.

 

[JesusLives]

Yeah, the problem with your statement above is that you are interpreting the state of death as nonexistence, but this is not what the whole of scripture teaches regarding death. If you and others did not turn the rich man and Lazarus into a parable, then you would understand that the rich man, who was dead, that his spirit was conscious and in torment in the flames of Hades just as the scripture states. However when you change these into parables, you lose the plain literal meaning and then yell for proof. It would beg you to ask the question as to how two men who were said to have died can be conscious and aware after the death of their bodies, with one in a place of comfort and the other in a place of torment in flame.

Like eternal life, death is a also a state of eternal, conscious existence in separation from God. As I have posted so many times, the words "apoleia/apollumi" which are translated as "destruction/perish" does not imply annihilation or extinction. It states that fact right in the definition. But you pay no attention to these facts.

Could you explain what distruction/perish mean to you in your dictionary because in mine it is torn down/destroyed and gone/dead.

 

[Ahwatukee]

How to you explain away God saying the wages of sin is DEATH?

I don't need to explain it away because it stems from your lack of understanding what the state of death is according to scripture. You're thinking of death as extinction or annihilation, which it is not. I have already posted this but here it is again: Death is a state of conscious existence in separation from God which is directly related to an individuals standing with God. Those who die unreconciled to God, die in their sins, death being a conscious state of eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. This is the second death. And speaking of the second death, if according to your claim that death means nonexistence then how could the wicked who have already died experience a second death? It demonstrates that their spirits still exist after the first death, with the second death being final separation from God in the lake of fire, which is also a state of on-going existence.

Life = never ending existence in the joy of the Lord and the kingdom of God

Death = never ending existence in separation from God in the lake of fire.