Eternal torment VS Annihilation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
G

garee

Banned
#541
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#541
Smooth said:
Weeping and gnashing of teeth definitely means one thing; if annihilation occurs, it won’t be immediate.
Click to expand...
Yes the letter of the law kills. In dying the corrupted flesh returns to the dust and the corrupted spirit return to the father who temporarily gave it. . subject to the letter of the law...that kills .The letter of the law will be cast into the lake of fire never to rise to condemn a creation ever again.

2 Corinthians 6:9 King James Version (KJV) As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
 
G

garee

Banned
#542
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#542
Jackson123 said:
My question is, where in the Bible say second death is innahilation
Click to expand...
The first death is our bodies that were subject to the letter of the law that kills; Thou shall not eat of the fruit of unbelief by doing the will another. . . for you shall surely die. The father of lies with one lie destroyed mankind in a hope of being God. "Surely you will not die" .

The second death is the power of letter of the law. . . the one by which the father of lies used to murder mankind from the beginning .

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire Revelation20: 14-15

Death and sufferings of dying as hell by the letter of the law will never rise again to condemn a new creation of God.
 
G

garee

Banned
#544
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#544
Dino246 said:
Where is that in Scripture?
Click to expand...
Hi Welcome back..

I would offer..Death and hell as the sufferings associated with death are in respect to the letter of the law . The first creation is subject to it.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire Revelation20: 14-15

(second death the death of death)

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#545
Jun 30, 2015
25,467
13,787
113
#545
garee said:
Hi Welcome back..

I would offer..Death and hell as the sufferings associated with death are in respect to the letter of the law . The first creation is subject to it.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire Revelation20: 14-15

(second death the death of death)

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I think that's a stretch. That which causes death is not death. The letter of the Law is part of the word of God, which endures forever.
 
G

garee

Banned
#546
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#546
Dino246 said:
Thanks. I think that's a stretch. That which causes death is not death. The letter of the Law is part of the word of God, which endures forever.
Click to expand...
The letter of the law kills forever. Satan used it as the murder weapon of lies from the beginning.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#547
Jun 30, 2015
25,467
13,787
113
#547
garee said:
The letter of the law kills forever. Satan used it as the murder weapon of lies from the beginning.
Click to expand...
"The letter of the Law" is what God gave Moses.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#548
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#548
garee said:
Hi Welcome back..

I would offer..Death and hell as the sufferings associated with death are in respect to the letter of the law . The first creation is subject to it.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire Revelation20: 14-15

(second death the death of death)

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Click to expand...
That verse not say second death is annihilation

My question is what verse say second death is annihilation
 
JesusLives

JesusLives

Senior Member
#549
Oct 11, 2013
14,554
2,176
113
#549
Jackson123 said:
can you provide a verse that say second death mean annihilate?

I hope you read this verse

Matthew 25:41 King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Click to expand...

Malachi 4:3, KJV: "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."

If the wicked are ashes under our feet then that's dead and gone.
 
G

garee

Banned
#550
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#550
Jackson123 said:
That verse not say second death is annihilation

My question is what verse say second death is annihilation
Click to expand...
The annihilation of death... the casue of annihilation (nothingless)

Again To annihilate is clearly to reduce to "nothing" not reduce to suffering a work . Like the before nothing.. before God said: let there be and there was something.

What kind of annihilation are you speaking of?
 
G

garee

Banned
#551
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#551
JesusLives said:
Malachi 4:3, KJV: "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."

If the wicked are ashes under our feet then that's dead and gone.
Click to expand...
Deader than a door nail .

No Phoenix rises from ashes Hollywood annihilation style .
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#552
#552
garee said:
Deader than a door nail .

No Phoenix rises from ashes Hollywood annihilation style .
Click to expand...
Agree. Have you ever tried to burn ashes? They won't burn, not a spark, there's nothing there.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#553
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#553
JesusLives said:
Malachi 4:3, KJV: "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."

If the wicked are ashes under our feet then that's dead and gone.
Click to expand...
If you cremate or burn, the wicked body, this body becomes ashes but can the spirit become ashes?

My friend, we have to consider context

How you say this verse mean

Matthew 25:41 King James Version (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It say everlasting or never ending.
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#554
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#554
garee said:
The annihilation of death... the casue of annihilation (nothingless)

Again To annihilate is clearly to reduce to "nothing" not reduce to suffering a work . Like the before nothing.. before God said: let there be and there was something.

What kind of annihilation are you speaking of?
Click to expand...
Did you find the word annihilation in the Bible?
 
G

garee

Banned
#555
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#555
Jackson123 said:
Did you find the word annihilation in the Bible?
Click to expand...
It is used several times .It means to come to nothing. . . . killed by the letter of the law.

Not to come to suffering after his flesh returned to the dust and the corrupted spirit return to the father who gave it, subjected it to the letter of the law. .

Suffering is not nothing but rather it is suffering.

Do you not want to find it and its usage .If it does not bring it to nothing .Then what does it bring it to?

2 Corinthians 6:9 King James Version (KJV) As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

Chastened for those not annihilated.(killed)

Killed never to come to new spirit life for those annihilated.

Cain who would have nothing to do with a God not seen, no faith through grace . His suffering of hell was increased before the annihilation. He said the suffering was be more than he could bear hoping for a reduced sentence .

Only Christ could bear that burden . God marked Cain 666 as natural unconverted man to make sure his death sentence made it to the end and no man would cut the sentence short. No electric chair.. .The suffering continued
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#556
Jun 30, 2015
25,467
13,787
113
#556
garee said:
It is used several times .It means to come to nothing. . . . killed by the letter of the law.
Click to expand...
"Annihilate" (and its variants) is not used in the KJV or the NIV, but it is used in the NASB. However, it is never used in the same context as 'the letter of the law'.
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
#557
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
#557
Karraster said:
Agree. Have you ever tried to burn ashes? They won't burn, not a spark, there's nothing there.
Click to expand...
What we know of burning is the taking of an object and it chemically changing into something
else with the release of energy, heat, light and smoke. Destruction, the pulling apart of something,
destruction as punishment.

The 1st death is the dying of our bodies so they are no more and return to the soil.
The 2nd death is the destruction of the soul so it is no more and ceases to exist.

A psalm sums up this principle very well

5 You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
6 Endless ruin has overtaken the enemy, you have uprooted their cities; even the memory of them has perished.
Psalm 9

God is not interested in maintaining the memory of the wicked, they will disappear, and His Kingdom will
reign supreme.
 
G

garee

Banned
#558
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#558
Dino246 said:
"Annihilate" (and its variants) is not used in the KJV or the NIV, but it is used in the NASB. However, it is never used in the same context as 'the letter of the law'.
Click to expand...
The word itself might not be there the principle is used through out . To bring to nothing, destroy, obliviate . Erase name from book of life. Never knew you...etc

The letter of the law kills. Just as it was designed.. to Annihilate" Suffering as the wrath of God revealed from heaven (a dying creation) is part of the work of Annihilation. Suffer until there is nothing left to suffer with .

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#559
Mar 13, 2014
42,590
17,055
113
69
Tennessee
#559
Smooth said:
Weeping and gnashing of teeth definitely means one thing; if annihilation occurs, it won’t be immediate.
Click to expand...
It is implied that the weeping and gnashing of teeth will go on for a bit until they are no more.
 
FollowHisSteps

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
#560
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
#560
tourist said:
It is implied that the weeping and gnashing of teeth will go on for a bit until they are no more.
Click to expand...
I am reminded of being with someone who thought they would die.
When they got better, there was pure terror and relief in their attitude.
All they thought of was being dominant in life and succeeding, and once on the slippery
slopp all was lost. Imagine such a person meeting God and seeing their whole life was
founded on putting others down and gaining respect.

What is left when you meet God, and everything in ones heart falls away? Weeping and
gnashing teeth. For me this is like a nervous breakdown, when all defences have gone,
who one is is totally exposed and nothing adds up. No escape, no compromise, no finding
safety or reassurance, for the source of love and reassurance is actually ones enemy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.