Exactly when and what triggered the ceasing of the gifts of the Spirit?

GreenNnice · Apr 11, 2013

This is the BEGINNING of the Holy Spirit power that goes on NOW, we ARE in the ”End Times,” just as prophet Joel prophesied. The power that Peter gave to believers to receive (Holy Spirit) waa to enthuse them to PREACH the gospel in this beginning Church Age time of Acts 2:38 great significance, when BELIEVERS RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR GIFTS UNTO THEIR LIFE DONE AS THE LORD saw fit to work.THROUGH them and God is same today as yesyerday as forevermore, and, His gifts (all of them!!) are in use today

And you thought I would never

And, now that you've sunk.your mind and fed your body with Spirit food of 2 Timothy 2:20 and surrounding context of Scripture, moove to 2 Tim. 1:6 , 7 and SEE how POWER really works to 'gift' us , all imbued witness for us to tell others the gospel and for His glory.

.

JaumeJ · Apr 11, 2013

About Power. Any gift is "on loan" and always in the name of Jesus Christ for His glory and honor. No believer possesses the power, it is God, Yahweh, acting through willing servants.

One thing I used to hear in certain congregations is "We are going to have the power," or "We are going to have the Holy Spirit." We have nothing, it is only the power of Yahweh, God. Any other power is not of God.

As mentioned in other posts, whenever the Lord has used me, on those few occasions, it was as though I were an observer also, and only afterward did I realize the miracle had occurred.

They come in any form, healing, knowledge, prophesy and much more. Our Father loves us so very much, and for Him to use any of us for whatever His purpose is His pleasure, for He does what He pleases, and what pleases our Father pleases us, amen.

bornagain3 · Apr 11, 2013

Hi Danschance!

I can tell you where the idea came from, but it is an error and a misunderstanding of the Word that caused a whole movement to arise claiming that 3 of the gifts have ceased and especially that modern tongues are false! The Scripture that these folk use is the following:

1Corinthians 13:8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

So there is a whole movement that now claims that the gifts of prophecy, tongues and a word of knowledge have ceased and no longer exist. But it is clear to me that in fact as Paul wrote he was actually saying that a time would come when ALL the gifts would cease, but just randomly picked and used 3 to put across his point. When would that time be? The Word doesn't actually tell us but I believe it will be from the Millennium onwards.

Now I can show you why tongues have not ceased in a short teaching and I hope it will give you the ammunition to be able to categorically state that as yet none of the gifts have ceased.

In Mark 16:17 we find the following: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Here Jesus is stating that in the Name of Jesus ALL believers will cast out demons (the word devils denotes demons) and they will ALL speak with new tongues. But please note that all the signs that Jesus lists that the believers would be known by in Mark 16:17+18 are in the the Name of Jesus. So in fact the authority by which we as believers cast out demons is in the Name of Jesus and in like manner, the authority by which we as believers all can speak in tongues is in the Name of Jesus.

Now I want to take you to another Scripture, Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Peter had been speaking about how in the Name of Jesus a man had been completely healed and then he goes on to say in the above verse that it is only in the Name of Jesus that a person can and must be saved. In other words Peter is saying here that the authority by which we are saved is in the Name of Jesus.

Now quite simply, if the authority of the Name of Jesus has ceased, then so have tongues ceased. But in like manner, if the authority of the name of Jesus has ceased, then no-one can be saved because it is in the authority of the Name of Jesus alone that we are saved. You cannot separate the one from the other. You cannot say that it is just tongues that has ceased and not the authority of the Name of Jesus because they are inextricably linked together! So if the Name of Jesus has not lost its authority, then we as believers are all still able to speak in tongues and we can be saved. This therefore applies to all the other gifts as well because why would it be only tongues that has ceased?

I can email you a fuller teaching on the gifts of the Spirit if you would like me to. I hope this helps you understand where the idea that tongues, prophesy and knowledge have ceased comes from? There are many people who believe this and especially about tongues, but as you can see by what I have shared from Scripture, they are in gross error.

Kind regards,

Andre de Kock

Abiding · Apr 11, 2013

bornagain3 said:

Hi Danschance!

I can tell you where the idea came from, but it is an error and a misunderstanding of the Word that caused a whole movement to arise claiming that 3 of the gifts have ceased and especially that modern tongues are false! The Scripture that these folk use is the following:

1Corinthians 13:8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

So there is a whole movement that now claims that the gifts of prophecy, tongues and a word of knowledge have ceased and no longer exist. But it is clear to me that in fact as Paul wrote he was actually saying that a time would come when ALL the gifts would cease, but just randomly picked and used 3 to put across his point. When would that time be? The Word doesn't actually tell us but I believe it will be from the Millennium onwards.

Now I can show you why tongues have not ceased in a short teaching and I hope it will give you the ammunition to be able to categorically state that as yet none of the gifts have ceased.

In Mark 16:17 we find the following: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Here Jesus is stating that in the Name of Jesus ALL believers will cast out demons (the word devils denotes demons) and they will ALL speak with new tongues. But please note that all the signs that Jesus lists that the believers would be known by in Mark 16:17+18 are in the the Name of Jesus. So in fact the authority by which we as believers cast out demons is in the Name of Jesus and in like manner, the authority by which we as believers all can speak in tongues is in the Name of Jesus.

Now I want to take you to another Scripture, Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Peter had been speaking about how in the Name of Jesus a man had been completely healed and then he goes on to say in the above verse that it is only in the Name of Jesus that a person can and must be saved. In other words Peter is saying here that the authority by which we are saved is in the Name of Jesus.

Now quite simply, if the authority of the Name of Jesus has ceased, then so have tongues ceased. But in like manner, if the authority of the name of Jesus has ceased, then no-one can be saved because it is in the authority of the Name of Jesus alone that we are saved. You cannot separate the one from the other. You cannot say that it is just tongues that has ceased and not the authority of the Name of Jesus because they are inextricably linked together! So if the Name of Jesus has not lost its authority, then we as believers are all still able to speak in tongues and we can be saved. This therefore applies to all the other gifts as well because why would it be only tongues that has ceased?

I can email you a fuller teaching on the gifts of the Spirit if you would like me to. I hope this helps you understand where the idea that tongues, prophesy and knowledge have ceased comes from? There are many people who believe this and especially about tongues, but as you can see by what I have shared from Scripture, they are in gross error.

Kind regards,

Andre de Kock

Doesnt hold up to 1 Cor 12....the HolySpirit divides severally as He wills.
And later in the chapter it shows all dont speak in tongues but the Holy Spirits places them as He wills.
So even if the gifts as in the first century were still in use whether as at the beginning or to a different
degree you cant say all have all. Just wont work.

The authority thingy is a weak arguement. The Name of Jesus will always be the name with Authority
until He comes back and hands it back to the Father.

I think you went from one extreme to another.

coconut · Apr 11, 2013

zone said:

I am not speaking or referring to any movement, so you can take that out of the equation of this discussion. I am referring to a pouring out of the Spirit in the last days and how God is going to draw unbelievers and those who live in unbelief to his Son. The preaching of the gospel and the cross of Christ is the only way that any man or woman can be forgiven and cleansed from sin. There is salvation in no other. But how God draws people through his loving kindness from every tongue and nation is going to take a supernatural intervention because the laborers are few. We must continue to pray to the Lord of the harvest to send laborers into the field. When our Lord walked the earth he was continually healing people from town to town and throughout the countryside. This drew the masses of people to himself, who had so many needs, and he was able to teach them and feed them. As the church, we are members of his body, flesh and bones and we have been redeemed to go into all the world and preach the gospel and make disciples. As we come in contact with the masses of the world the needs are great and our Lord has all power to meet those needs. Has he lost his compassion for those that come to him for healing, even by proxy? He was anointed to not only preach the gospel but to also do what was revealed to Isaiah in chapter 61 (Acts 10:38).

He is our head and we are his body. The dew starts from the head and comes down to the skirts of the garment. Are we to believe that we are NOT anointed by the same anointing that comes from the head? Are we to believe that we do not go out into all the world with the same calling and grace from above through the filling and leading of the Spirit, the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead which quickens our mortal body or that God is not with us also in all these places? How are we to believe God's inspired word like in Psalm 103? Has the Lord stopped healing those who have not believed him for their sin or is healing just for those who believe? Healing is not a sign to the unbeliever as some of you suggest, it is compassion from God because of the nature of his loving kindness. If God wants to pour out his Spirit through the members of his body in the last days and use whatever means to draw sinners to himself, we better be sure that we don't have him in a doctrinal box of our understanding because his ways are not our ways and frankly they are even past finding out. The movement that many of you refer to is one thing but the movement of God in these last days is another and we should be part of that movement by faith available to the things of God revealed to us in the last days. Additional revelation to the scriptures, NO, but a continual manifestation of his resurrection life and the power of his resurrection through the members of his body, flesh and bones on this earth, YES!

zone · Apr 11, 2013

GreenNnice said:

oh stop flattering yourself and downgrading the real miracles and stuff.
it's embarrassing greenie.
seriously.

NOTHING you say is God-breathed inerrant testimony like the scriptures.

that's why charismaticism et is intolerable for me.
ppl just not content to be living stones built ONTOP of the foundation LAID once for all by Jesus and the Apostles and prophets.

how many foundations does your house have green?

2000 years worth? it won't stand, man.

zone · Apr 11, 2013

coconut said:

PLEASE stop with the 2000 year Pentecostal GAP.
go back and read it again.

Peter said Pentecost WAS - the fulfillment of Joel.

the prophets very often used singles passages to encompass all of redemptive history - in both Joel and Peter, like Mttw 24, Rev....they give a snapshot of the WHOLE PROMISE.

sometimes that includes up to THE (ONLY ONE) FINAL LAST DAY....sometimes it doesn't.

please, please study 'these last days'; "in those days" etc.

the GIFTS ceased...then according to you RESTARTED.

or, you have TWO identical Pentecosts.

you figure it out.

not reposting it all.

k. thx

JaumeJ · Apr 11, 2013

Our Father does use His Children for His ends, mainly the saving of souls by the Blood of His Only Begotten Son, our Lord, Yeshua. I know of one of His glorious works that is not mentioned in the Word although it does fall under the heading of a miracle. Of course all the gifts are miracles. Our Father, Almighty, can do anything, and He will always do anything that pleases Him, and, as posted before, anything pleasing our Father must please us too, yes it does.

carey said:

GreenNnice · Apr 11, 2013

Your testimony is God-breathed,, ohzone.

By the way, when someone says, 'The End!!!!,' the Lord leads, but it, SUDDENLY, fuels He in me to show that 'it' is just the beginning, that is, Holy Spirit POWER that BEGAN in Church Age of Acts and CONTINUES today, in full KNOWLEDGE KNOWN, in full KNOWLEDGE USED by those, as He wills.

people are doing signs and wonders TODAY as He inxividually wills, we are in the End Times, are we not? far from PERFECT TIMES, @re we at in time but, don't worry, soon and very soon The Perfect (time) will.come. Jesus is coming again to.RAPTURE His own, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is His truth , not to mention, His promise, to all who believe in Christ, that by His power He rose from.the dead

homwardbound · Apr 11, 2013

onlinebuddy said:

John 1:33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 3:30He must increase, but I must decrease.
Matthew 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Luke 3:16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Jesus by belief (ours) does the Babtising

zone · Apr 11, 2013

GreenNnice said:

please don't make such claims on my behalf.
my testimony is nothing.

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

danschance · Apr 11, 2013

zone said:

I am not sure if Pentecost "fulfilled" Joel 2:28-29 or "commenced it. We still are in the last days and will remain in them till Jesus comes back.

MARANATHA!!

coconut · Apr 11, 2013

zone said:

There is no GAP but an ongoing continuation of the out pouring of the Spirit who will make known to our hearts the words of Jesus Christ. We have the scriptures that we rely upon to communicate the thoughts of God and we have the gifts of the Spirit to edify the body and to win the lost through the gospel of the cross. We only have the gifts that God has given through grace and no more. Those gifts are given to us as members in particular to edify the other members, to function in the local assembly and in the field when we are sent out. God will impart whatever gifts that are needed to fulfill the ministry we have been given in the body of Christ. I see no purpose in receiving a gift of another tongue unless it is to communicate a message to convince the doubting heart or to communicate the gospel in the language the recipient can receive with understanding. God is compassionate and full of mercy and sees the need for many to be healed in spirit, soul and body and only asks those who come to him to believe.

That is our God and one who is always working through the members of his body, flesh and bones as he did through his Son who gave thanks to the Father in all things. The last days began with the outpouring of the Spirit of grace at Pentecost and continue to this day as the dispensation of grace. God is pouring grace into the lips of the members of his body and in the heart of believers who humble themselves before the mighty hand of God. There is no difference in what God did at Pentecost in Jerusalem and what he doing in many parts of the world with those who humble themselves in his sight. He has not changed because he is immutable. We are to preach the gospel and with that preaching the Holy Spirit can operate in such a way in the lives of people through conviction and through healing the human spirit, the human soul and the human body. There is no restraint to the Lord who can do this with a few or with many.

zone · Apr 11, 2013

danschance said:

please document the same quality or type of miracles and such from the close of the Apostolic age to present.

ANYTHING

continuation means just that - no GAP....no stop...no cessation.

so please provide a single shred of evidence for the same activity we see surrounding Moses; Elijah or Jesus and the Apostles.

anything.

a headline...video...you have 1900 years to draw from.

i'll wait here.

RickyZ · Apr 11, 2013

zone said:

But according to you the spirit of prophecy is dead so the testimony is too.

I've been harsh with you in the past Zone; for the record I don't doubt your salvation nor who your God is. But you cling fiercely to some erroneous and potentially dangerous teachings. And the spirit behind the attitude in your words needs testing too. Don't be the crazy man on the corner ranting about how cars died out in the 50's while they whiz by you today.

zone · Apr 11, 2013

RickyZ said:

thx ricky.
Jesus is alive, the scriptures are God-breathed
the Holy Spirit is God, active and working.

what does any of that have to do with pentecostalism?

danschance · Apr 12, 2013

zone said:

I have no documentation. Yet I can give you many examples based on my testimony.

1) I was healed in a sudden manner of a high fever and body aches.

2) I prayed with a girl who had attempted suicide and the scar on her wrist vanished.

3) I prayed for a Registered Nurse who had the bones in her feet crushed as a child and they never healed properly. As a nurse and often on her feet she went thru daily pain and had to be choosie on footwear We prayed and she said she felt her feet get real hot. She took off her shoes and all of her toes were straight and her feet looked normal.

I testify as a Christian brother that these things took place and not one false word or false claim has been inserted into any of the above. No doctor was ever around when they happened. There are no xrays, no photographs or anything else. Yet I fully contend and claim that is exactly what happened. You may mock it if you wish, but you will be mocking the very work of God. God did the healing. I claim no title or special gift.

JaumeJ · Apr 12, 2013

All miracles I have been blessed to witness cannot possibly be documented for they happened in a one-on-one situation. It appears when one is witness others may call him a liar, but they are not witnesses, and the one witnessing the work of God, Yahweh, is.

The Word as source authority is our witness to the great works of our Lord and some of the Apostles. Those works should speak for any claims of believers today as a witness while the Holy Spirit dwelling in us bears witness to our hearts and souls.

Once while attending a Full Gospel Businessmen's meeting in Denver, they "healed" a man with some terminal illness, I forget today whether it was lungs or heart. Although I had experienced several one-on-one miracles, I was skeptical. A day later while on my "Pony Express" mail route in the Colorado Rockies, I espied the healed person sitting on a step outside a hotel. He had been paid a small fee to enact a healing.

So, there are false healings, false miracles in general. I believe the majority seen in great public meetings and on television are to be suspect, but this is my own suspicious nature. Meanwhile thinking in terms of keeping my mind on all things beautiful, I hope and pray that many of these publiczed miracles are the real deal.

None of the charlatans are able to damage my faith, for they are usually pretty transparent, especially when they are not healing and preaching in an open venue to the masses.

coconut · Apr 12, 2013

unclefester

I see you are one who often compliments this poster Zone, who can be very convincing, but what do you think of post #273? In addition, did Paul deal with the believers at Corinth in a different way then he did with the other churches, and was it the same Spirit within the members of that church as it was with others? Tell me what you believe to be the meaning of the following scriptures.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts (charisma) and calling of God are without repentance.

1 Corinthians 7:7 What gift or gifts are being referred to here? For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

1 Timothy 4:14 What was this gift Timothy had received from the laying on of hands? Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Rom 12:5-8 So we , being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth , on teaching;8 Or he that exhorteth , on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth ,with diligence; he that sheweth mercy , with cheerfulness.

1 Corinthians 12:4-12 How are we to determine which ones of these have ceased or how they are to be presently parceled out in the church?

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal . 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom ; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit ; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles ; to another prophecy ; to another discerning of spirits ; to another divers kinds of tongues ; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will . 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Are we as members of Christ's body to know the gifts that we have been given by grace through the Spirit and to stir ourselves up in those gifts? Are there gifts that have been given the body that we are to stay away from? If so, which ones?

homwardbound · Apr 12, 2013

bornagain3 said:

Actually itis all in the power of the cross, Christ's death which reconciled all tomankind the burial which is proof of the death for three days before theresurrection that brought in a new Covenant, a new Law, and a new Priesthood. Andthis was completed by the resurrection where all believers are to reside in isthe resurrection of Christ thus being born again here and now by the renewingof our carnal minds to Spiritual minds.
It is notjust the name it is the power involved by the cross at the resurrection wherethe devil lost and the keys were taken and the dead Spirits in prison werepreached to and released those that believe, (made alive in the Spirit ofChrist) as he took captivity captive WOW!!!!! It is powerful you all, by beliefnot just the name, no but the power that is in the full Gospel the resurrectionat the cross over two thousand years ago
There aremany that are playing Church and imitating Christ to the best of their abilityand are miserable behind closed doors
So thequestion is what did Jesus Christ do for any of us that believe in him is it?
The one any ofus are trying to imitate?
Or the onethat not only desires to live in us, but more importantly through us?
our choice

Exactly when and what triggered the ceasing of the gifts of the Spirit?

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