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P
I know a very godly man who speaks in tongues.
I think the 'gifts of the spirit of God' ceased with writing of the Bible. The gospel could be shared more easily once it was written (until the Catholic church banned lay folk from reading it).
The Bible does say that shortly before the return of Christ gifts will return. But it doesn't say how near the return or what gifts.
The important thing is that they are not given now. And so the person you hear speaking in tongues or giving prophecies or healing with a touch.... well, I'll leave the conclusion up to you
The Bible does say that shortly before the return of Christ gifts will return. But it doesn't say how near the return or what gifts.
The important thing is that they are not given now. And so the person you hear speaking in tongues or giving prophecies or healing with a touch.... well, I'll leave the conclusion up to you
I love this post of yours, Jack.
As witnesses to the truth, we all have a personal testimony on how we were saved. The same is said of how God continues to work in our lives, including His use of visions, dreams and healing, directly from Him. No one can take this witness away from you, because it's yours. Everyone has a personal relationship with Him and He works in several ways.
We testify to what God has done and continues to do in our lives, because all these things are true.
When I mentioned healing, I mean directly from God, when you call out to Him and if it's His will then He will heal you.
It's God's will. Things given from God are not asked for, as you said. These things will usually happen when least expected and it may be years before He gives a vision or maybe never again, but we don't depend on such things, for we are already believers and we walk by faith.
All we can do is testify to the truth and what has happened in our lives
As witnesses to the truth, we all have a personal testimony on how we were saved. The same is said of how God continues to work in our lives, including His use of visions, dreams and healing, directly from Him. No one can take this witness away from you, because it's yours. Everyone has a personal relationship with Him and He works in several ways.
We testify to what God has done and continues to do in our lives, because all these things are true.
When I mentioned healing, I mean directly from God, when you call out to Him and if it's His will then He will heal you.
It's God's will. Things given from God are not asked for, as you said. These things will usually happen when least expected and it may be years before He gives a vision or maybe never again, but we don't depend on such things, for we are already believers and we walk by faith.
All we can do is testify to the truth and what has happened in our lives
So much confusion indeed. God the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, except today isn't the same as yesterday, and tomorrow will be different still; people claiming the gifts have ceased but saying they've witnessed them nonetheless; people saying the gifts live but operating above and beyond the will of God; people who mine symbolism yet say stop seeking so much symbology; one side mocking the other as deceived and deceiving and vise versa; all of us seeking the truth but not willing to accept that the other side may have some to share too...
and satan stands back laughing 'what a fine mess I've made'
The gifts live. They are not at our beck and call but at God's. It is not our place to call upon them, but it is our place to make ourselves available. And it is better to not use them than to do so irresponsibly.
As one said early on, seek the Giver, not the gift. Be available to receive, don't grab and take. And test the spirits, that they glorify God and nothing else.
and satan stands back laughing 'what a fine mess I've made'
The gifts live. They are not at our beck and call but at God's. It is not our place to call upon them, but it is our place to make ourselves available. And it is better to not use them than to do so irresponsibly.
As one said early on, seek the Giver, not the gift. Be available to receive, don't grab and take. And test the spirits, that they glorify God and nothing else.
R
this is a summary of my research on the history of the spiritual gifts that i have posted a couple times before...
in the early second century AD justin martyr wrote in his 'dialogue with trypho the jew' that healing and tongues and prophecy were common in the christian church...
in the late second century irenaeus...a student of john's student polycarp...wrote in his book 'against heresies' that many in the churches spoke in tongues and received prophecy and performed healings...
in the early third century origen wrote in his book 'against celsus' that the tongues were temporary and that they no longer happened...but he also reported that he was a witness to ongoing prophecy and healings...
in the late third century john chrysostom indicated in his 'homily on 1 corinthians 12' that tongues no longer occurred and admitted that the church's understanding of the nature of tongues had been obscured by the passage of time...chrysostom is also the first to use the term 'cessation'
in the early fourth century the church historian eusebius of caesarea...based on the writings i already mentioned and other reports that we no longer have...concluded in his 'ecclesiastical history' that the tongues had continued only through irenaeus' time...
in the mid fourth century epiphanius of salamis wrote in his anti heretical 'medicine chest' that prophecy was welcomed in the church...he argued against the montanists that the church had not rejected the spiritual gifts but only had denounced the montanists' charisma as not being authentic spiritual gifts...
in the late fourth century augustine wrote in his 'homily on 1 john' that the tongues were for the early church and were no longer present in his time...
in the early fifth century augustine wrote in his 'city of God' that miracles still occurred...but that they were not as widely reported as the earlier miracles...and he described several contemporary healings that he was aware of or even witnessed himself... most of the contemporary healings augustine tells about happened through prayer or through the sacraments...especially baptism... augustine also argued in the same work that although the miracles still happened they were no longer spiritually necessary because 'the whole world' had come to believe the gospel...
although the church fathers were fallible and often uncritical and prone to repeating hearsay...most of these post apostolic testimonies seem to reflect the widespread consensus of 'common knowledge' in the church regarding the gifts in their respective time periods...
from all of these ancient testimonies my conclusion is that the tongues continued into the late second century and then ceased... healings continued at least into the fifth century although by that time they were usually the result of prayer or sacrament...healing by direct command as in the new testament appears to have largely ceased by then... prophecy continued at least into the fourth century and it is not clear whether it ever fully ceased...
because of my research i take a position i call 'tentative cessationism'...i regard the ceasing of tongues and the ceasing of healing by direct command as a -historical- fact...though i don't have any -theological- reason for it being so...and consequently i am neutral on the question of whether or not these miraculous gifts could be revived and whether or not the pentecostal or charismatic movements represent such a revival in modern times
in the early second century AD justin martyr wrote in his 'dialogue with trypho the jew' that healing and tongues and prophecy were common in the christian church...
in the late second century irenaeus...a student of john's student polycarp...wrote in his book 'against heresies' that many in the churches spoke in tongues and received prophecy and performed healings...
in the early third century origen wrote in his book 'against celsus' that the tongues were temporary and that they no longer happened...but he also reported that he was a witness to ongoing prophecy and healings...
in the late third century john chrysostom indicated in his 'homily on 1 corinthians 12' that tongues no longer occurred and admitted that the church's understanding of the nature of tongues had been obscured by the passage of time...chrysostom is also the first to use the term 'cessation'
in the early fourth century the church historian eusebius of caesarea...based on the writings i already mentioned and other reports that we no longer have...concluded in his 'ecclesiastical history' that the tongues had continued only through irenaeus' time...
in the mid fourth century epiphanius of salamis wrote in his anti heretical 'medicine chest' that prophecy was welcomed in the church...he argued against the montanists that the church had not rejected the spiritual gifts but only had denounced the montanists' charisma as not being authentic spiritual gifts...
in the late fourth century augustine wrote in his 'homily on 1 john' that the tongues were for the early church and were no longer present in his time...
in the early fifth century augustine wrote in his 'city of God' that miracles still occurred...but that they were not as widely reported as the earlier miracles...and he described several contemporary healings that he was aware of or even witnessed himself... most of the contemporary healings augustine tells about happened through prayer or through the sacraments...especially baptism... augustine also argued in the same work that although the miracles still happened they were no longer spiritually necessary because 'the whole world' had come to believe the gospel...
although the church fathers were fallible and often uncritical and prone to repeating hearsay...most of these post apostolic testimonies seem to reflect the widespread consensus of 'common knowledge' in the church regarding the gifts in their respective time periods...
from all of these ancient testimonies my conclusion is that the tongues continued into the late second century and then ceased... healings continued at least into the fifth century although by that time they were usually the result of prayer or sacrament...healing by direct command as in the new testament appears to have largely ceased by then... prophecy continued at least into the fourth century and it is not clear whether it ever fully ceased...
because of my research i take a position i call 'tentative cessationism'...i regard the ceasing of tongues and the ceasing of healing by direct command as a -historical- fact...though i don't have any -theological- reason for it being so...and consequently i am neutral on the question of whether or not these miraculous gifts could be revived and whether or not the pentecostal or charismatic movements represent such a revival in modern times
Very interesting study and I love your conclusion. There's no doubt that the gifts most definately fell out of favor and have only seen a small fraction of the use they did at first. But like you say, is that man or is that God?
First question I'd ask is if there is "anyone(s)" who hold authority here and now who would have an interest in seeing God's powers fall out of use with man? If I were an entity seeking to spread, say, desease amongst man, I sure wouldn't want them running around with the idea that they could heal themselves.
Secondly, this whole debate smacks of the crazy man who stands on the corner insisting cars died out in the 50's while they whiz right by him apparently unnoticed. It IS happening out there people, and so to claim by any rationalization that it's not is insanity. Since it IS happening, better to figure out why most stopped doing it, than to be the crazy man on the corner ignoring the obvious.
Sorry to be so blunt. But in the end those who are not functional in this are threatened to go apostate. Matthew 24:10.
First question I'd ask is if there is "anyone(s)" who hold authority here and now who would have an interest in seeing God's powers fall out of use with man? If I were an entity seeking to spread, say, desease amongst man, I sure wouldn't want them running around with the idea that they could heal themselves.
Secondly, this whole debate smacks of the crazy man who stands on the corner insisting cars died out in the 50's while they whiz right by him apparently unnoticed. It IS happening out there people, and so to claim by any rationalization that it's not is insanity. Since it IS happening, better to figure out why most stopped doing it, than to be the crazy man on the corner ignoring the obvious.
Sorry to be so blunt. But in the end those who are not functional in this are threatened to go apostate. Matthew 24:10.
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Evidently I've failed to fully explain myself with short statements. I apologize. That's my fault.
The church itself has no power. Only through the Holy Spirit it does. Also, power comes at the will of The Lord not on our own will. The power comes from God. Not us as humans. That's all I was meaning.
If I need to elaborate more I will. But later. Just let me know I need a nap. Lol. Long day.
The church itself has no power. Only through the Holy Spirit it does. Also, power comes at the will of The Lord not on our own will. The power comes from God. Not us as humans. That's all I was meaning.
If I need to elaborate more I will. But later. Just let me know I need a nap. Lol. Long day.