Exactly when and what triggered the ceasing of the gifts of the Spirit?

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
no one...not one single person living today has the authority, nor supernatural power from on High that was poured out as gifts on the founders of the church.

no more

prophets
supernaturally knowing and speaking a language you didn't learn
new revelation
words of knowledge directly from God
instantaneous healings as confirmation of the apostolic authority
miraculous acts performed to buttress the inspired message.
supernaturally inspired and infallible evangelists such as philip

anyone reading the Book of Acts who can even suggest they have the same quality, quantity or purpose of the foundational gifts is fooling themselves.

pentecostalism is new, and has nothing whatsoever in common with the supernatural gifts from Pentecost (Acts, and epistles, etc)

sorry - it's just reality.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
This may be a good time for zone to remain silent since she is completely wrong about the spiritual gifts of the 1st century Christians being unavailable to Christians today... lolol.

Apostolic authority is a different matter; however. Because the apostles authority depended on Christ’s direct personal commission, they had, properly speaking, no successors; but each generation of Christians must show its continuity with the first generation, and its allegiance to Christ, by subjecting its own faith and life to the norm of teaching which Christ’s appointed delegates provided and put on record for all time in the documents of the NT. Through the NT, apostolic exousia over the church has been made a permanent reality. This, of course, did have an effect on the spiritual gifting of prophecy which I've discussed in previous posts but it in no way negated the spiritual gifts of the New Testament.

I've experienced physical supernatural healing from God directly. I've seen and experienced the New Testament spiritual gifts in action in the Christian church exactly as recorded in the New Testament. To deny observable reality, properly qualified with scripture, is not something I am prepared to do for I am not deceived and I am not an idiot. Lolol.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
This may be a good time for zone to remain silent since she is completely wrong about the spiritual gifts of the 1st century Christians being unavailable to Christians today... lolol.

Apostolic authority is a different matter; however. Because the apostles authority depended on Christ’s direct personal commission, they had, properly speaking, no successors
9(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?a 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers...

i make the cessation distinction at the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers.
you make it at the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers

you are a cessationist.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
I've seen and experienced the New Testament spiritual gifts in action in the Christian church exactly as recorded in the New Testament. To deny observable reality, properly qualified with scripture, is not something I am prepared to do for I am not deceived and I am not an idiot. Lolol.
no, you haven't.
just what you've been told they were.
:)
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
ohzone, to deny the observable reality of some people is easy to do, for it takes faith to believe things like that.

It's awful hard though to get someone to disbelieve in tongues and prophecy and other gifts that edify the church when God's used you spiritually in 'this' way to gift the church. Why would the gifts ever die out. The only thing that is DEAD these days is a lot of churches (no offense by this, I pray and hope the best for ALL churches :). Just saying) and, God, is moving, milady, in ways that you can not see so you cannot believe. It's OK ! The Lord leads. I don't have no tongues ever in my mouth before ever, would it be nice to edify the church in this way, or, prophesy something? Sure . But, it makes no difference to me what signs or wonders the Lord gives me of 'that' nature. I've seen His hand upon my life in so many ways and I just believe, have faith, just like you, and, I have His Spirit in me, teaching me all truth, as I read the word and life my life by faith in doing His work as His workmanship, this my hope and prayer :)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
It's awful hard though to get someone to disbelieve in tongues and prophecy and other gifts that edify the church when God's used you spiritually in 'this' way to gift the church.
that isn't from God.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
that isn't from God.
ohzone, we will just have to agree that we disagree on this, and, I do not doubt, for one second, that God's used people in churches to speak in tongues to edify a church, to help a church become greater, to help a church become alive, that before was dead. This may seem hard to believe but the churches of Paul's time are no different than today in some senses, they still need folks to go around, sometimes, and help them eradicate a person who has sex with his fathers wife (not his birth mother, keep in mind, and, this is 1 Cor. 5 said by Paul), to help them become something with fruit, which is exactly why God gives people gifts, sometimes. I don't know what to say about it tangentially because I've not felt the gifts myself, nor do I care. Just like doctrine, I respect your doctrine, I just don't like it (as you well know) when you belittle my doctrine or judge anyone else's. Hey, we all believe in the same Christ, so what if gifts died out or not. So what if Satan is alive or dead in your doctrine these days , isn't that amillenialism' eschatology beliefe, ohzone? So what? So what? So what?

We believe in the One, who made us, we arrived at the same foundation of Jesus Christ' work on the cross, as 1 Cor. 3 puts it. We are to do work here. Spiritual gifts ARE work for Him, you being His workmanship, you who will be getting rewards for works in Heaven, you better be careful that what you say to blast others' doctrine is not judgmental, because the words you say, that hurt others, might just save you, but burn up ALL your works, or, a lot of them, anyway. Fire spreads fast, you know, when it comes to chinking another's faith in Christ . The Enemy is the one who is helping people fall away, don't you help too :(
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38
I once received a free booklet from a popular evangelist.
The booklet was designed to teach people to speak in tongues. The booklet taught that one must roll his tongue and say whatever one could, and the Spirit would take over. His entire family and church spoke in tongues. When I watched his program on TV, I felt like it was not the real thing, but just CONDITIONED BEHAVIOR.

Another TV evangelist would tell the congregation (mostly newcomers) to close their eyes and babble whatever they could, and that some would hear the voice of God and be healed, etc. He then would send his volunteers walk up and down the isle, as they "spoke in tongues." Every now and then, the volunteers would go close and speak something into the ears of the people (who had their eyes closed and were working out strange lingo with their tongues).

THESE ARE NOT THE TYPE OF TONGUES THE BIBLE SPEAKS ABOUT, ARE THEY?
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
You're entitled to your opinion even when you're wrong zone.

I am certainly NOT a cessationist.

Cessationism is the view that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in tongues, prophetic utterances and faith healing, ceased being practiced early in Christian Church history.

I observe and experience the opposite even though you don't believe that I do. Your error.


9(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?a 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers...

i make the cessation distinction at the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers.
you make it at the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers

you are a cessationist.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,290
6,581
113
The tongues spoken of in the Word were always spontaneaous and only by the Holy Spirit. The Apostles when filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues among a multitude of people from varied countries, and they all understood the Apostles in each's own tongue. I have always believed the Holy Spirit was speaking through them in a manner than anyone from any country or language understood any one Apostle in his own language. The gift of tongues within the congregation is when one speaks by means of the Holy Spirit, it may only be interpreted by someone with the also gift of interpretation, otherwise the person with the gift of tongues sounds to the congregation like babble, and this is disorderly, and it should not be practiced without someone with the gift of interpretation. As for what you have described, it is simple blasphemy to believe one may show others how to speak in tongues, however it is not if one has the gift of laying of hands to impart that gift. No one should discount the actions of Yahweh, God, through His servants. No man has any authority unless it is received from our Father.[ [/FONT] QUOTE=onlinebuddy;981196]I once received a free booklet from a popular evangelist.
The booklet was designed to teach people to speak in tongues. The booklet taught that one must roll his tongue and say whatever one could, and the Spirit would take over. His entire family and church spoke in tongues. When I watched his program on TV, I felt like it was not the real thing, but just CONDITIONED BEHAVIOR.

Another TV evangelist would tell the congregation (mostly newcomers) to close their eyes and babble whatever they could, and that some would hear the voice of God and be healed, etc. He then would send his volunteers walk up and down the isle, as they "spoke in tongues." Every now and then, the volunteers would go close and speak something into the ears of the people (who had their eyes closed and were working out strange lingo with their tongues).

THESE ARE NOT THE TYPE OF TONGUES THE BIBLE SPEAKS ABOUT, ARE THEY?
[/QUOTE]
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,290
6,581
113
I will confess, I will not boast except of our great and wonderful Elohim, God. Giving only one experience of Yahweh, God's power using me.

One night I was at a commune, some called it a hippy commune, in a beautiful old stone mansion-like house opposite Boulder Highway, the road going from Boulder, Colorado to Nederland and connects with Peak-to-Peak Highway. This building consisted of a lower floor that disappeared into the incline of the mountain, while the next two floors were the actual house. I had never been in the place before. There were lots of people living in the varied rooms. I was in the kitchen when all began to occur.
Now this is how things happen when God uses some folks. The Holy Spirit came upon me, and though there were no words, I was moved to walk through a door. Everything that insues here was directed by the Holy Spirit, and it seemed I was a guest observer. Entering the room there was a young man sitting on a bed reading. He looked up and nodded. There was a door on the opposite side of the room. I walked through to find myself on the outside in almost pitch dark on the steep incline of the mountain. I put out open arms and a young woman came, almost falling, down the incline into my arms. She was screaming and crying because someone who in an attempt to seduce her had given her lsd, this was 1970. She said she was seeing little beings under the furniture upstairs and outside, and said she was drugged and tripping. Then, now this may sound stupid but I was doing what I was given and saying what was given, I asked "Do you want to be tripping?" She shreiked in a tone I do not ever care to hear again, "Nooooooo." I said, "Jesus does not want you to be tripping either," and power, wonderful power came down and from behind me entering her. Her body and felt as though it were going backwars out of my arms, and I held her as her head went backwards. Being a guest in this situation, I aske, "What happened?" She said, "I'm straight." It turned out I knew this woman's husband, a man with whom I had been sharing the Word for some time. Here is something for anyone who wonders about backsliding and being brought back into the fold! Susan, this is the name of the girl, as it turned out, said to me days later when we were talking about the wonders and love and care and joy of knowing the Father in Jesus Christ, "I never thought I would feel that again!" I said, "Again?" She said, "When I was 12 the Holy Spirit came into me, but I wandered away from Jesus." No one is commanded to believe me, but this occurred, and all glory goes to our Father in Jesus Christ's name, Yeshua. If God uses the likes of me for miracles, He will use anyone and anything. Never shorten the Arm of God, saying He cannot, be it miracles of salvation or any other. He is Älmighty, and He is so wonderful, so wonderful, amen. Praise Jesus Christ for He is worthy, not us, He is, amen.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38
I will confess, I will not boast except of our great and wonderful Elohim, God. Giving only one experience of Yahweh, God's power using me.

One night I was at a commune, some called it a hippy commune, in a beautiful old stone mansion-like house opposite Boulder Highway, the road going from Boulder, Colorado to Nederland and connects with Peak-to-Peak Highway. This building consisted of a lower floor that disappeared into the incline of the mountain, while the next two floors were the actual house. I had never been in the place before. There were lots of people living in the varied rooms. I was in the kitchen when all began to occur.
Now this is how things happen when God uses some folks. The Holy Spirit came upon me, and though there were no words, I was moved to walk through a door. Everything that insues here was directed by the Holy Spirit, and it seemed I was a guest observer. Entering the room there was a young man sitting on a bed reading. He looked up and nodded. There was a door on the opposite side of the room. I walked through to find myself on the outside in almost pitch dark on the steep incline of the mountain. I put out open arms and a young woman came, almost falling, down the incline into my arms. She was screaming and crying because someone who in an attempt to seduce her had given her lsd, this was 1970. She said she was seeing little beings under the furniture upstairs and outside, and said she was drugged and tripping. Then, now this may sound stupid but I was doing what I was given and saying what was given, I asked "Do you want to be tripping?" She shreiked in a tone I do not ever care to hear again, "Nooooooo." I said, "Jesus does not want you to be tripping either," and power, wonderful power came down and from behind me entering her. Her body and felt as though it were going backwars out of my arms, and I held her as her head went backwards. Being a guest in this situation, I aske, "What happened?" She said, "I'm straight." It turned out I knew this woman's husband, a man with whom I had been sharing the Word for some time. Here is something for anyone who wonders about backsliding and being brought back into the fold! Susan, this is the name of the girl, as it turned out, said to me days later when we were talking about the wonders and love and care and joy of knowing the Father in Jesus Christ, "I never thought I would feel that again!" I said, "Again?" She said, "When I was 12 the Holy Spirit came into me, but I wandered away from Jesus." No one is commanded to believe me, but this occurred, and all glory goes to our Father in Jesus Christ's name, Yeshua. If God uses the likes of me for miracles, He will use anyone and anything. Never shorten the Arm of God, saying He cannot, be it miracles of salvation or any other. He is Älmighty, and He is so wonderful, so wonderful, amen. Praise Jesus Christ for He is worthy, not us, He is, amen.
Jack, Good to read about your experience. This was a one of a kind experience and I would never dare argue against it. I believe that God works in mysterious and amazing ways and He can use anyone as He pleases. Thanks for sharing.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
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I get the feeling that many people don't really know what The Holy Spirit is.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,290
6,581
113
When someone has something from the Lord to share or teach, it should be shared or taught. Vague commentary with an acid base is not exactly the love of Jesus being demonstrating in practice. The Blood of Jesus Christ saves us all who have called upon Him for His salvation making us family in Jesus Christ. Love and share, this is all that really counts in a room devoted to our Lord. Love in the Lamb of God. What do you have to elaborate upon?
I get the feeling that many people don't really know what The Holy Spirit is.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
When someone has something from the Lord to share or teach, it should be shared or taught. Vague commentary with an acid base is not exactly the love of Jesus being demonstrating in practice. The Blood of Jesus Christ saves us all who have called upon Him for His salvation making us family in Jesus Christ. Love and share, this is all that really counts in a room devoted to our Lord. Love in the Lamb of God. What do you have to elaborate upon?
I said exactly what I wanted to say. Some people don't know what the Holy Spirit is.
Many think you aren't a Christian if you don't have gifts. Many think the baptism of the HS is what makes you a Christian. Many think if you have not been given a gift then you aren't a true Christian. PEople don't know what the Holy Spirit is.
The Holy Spirit is what you have the moment you devote your life to Christ.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,290
6,581
113
Thank you, now you have revealed what you intended, no problem, now it is not cryptic, it is in the open, great. Keep up the full disclosures! It is apprecieated.[QUOTE=Elizabeth619;981404]I said exactly what I wanted to say. Some people don't know what the Holy Spirit is.
Many think you aren't a Christian if you don't have gifts. Many think the baptism of the HS is what makes you a Christian. Many think if you have not been given a gift then you aren't a true Christian. PEople don't know what the Holy Spirit is.
The Holy Spirit is what you have the moment you devote your life to Christ.[/QUOTE]
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38
Hey Elizabeth and Jack, You guys are my closest friends on this site:) Praise God for that! And I have been blessed by reading posts from both of you.

I agree that many people think that the Holy Spirit almost always works in dramatic ways. On the other hand, many people attribute every dramatic experience to the Holy Spirit. This can lead to deception. Furthermore they teach that others must be on the lookout for such an experience as a mark of their salvation.

In my 25+ years' walk with God, I haven't had any such dramatic experience, but I believe that the Holy Spirit dwells inside me and guides me. My faith and knowledge of the Holy Spirit is based solely on the scriptures. I believe it because the Bible says so. I would love to have a supernatural or dramatic experience, but it hasn't happened so far, and I am not on the lookout for one, as the Bible does not tell me to.

I believe that salvation is not necessarily marked by such an experience. On the other hand, when someone shares about their experience, I appreciate it and will not argue, simply because I cannot put God in a box. However, if someone teaches that one must be on the lookout for such an experience as a mark of their salvation, I would refute that.

Jack, Keep up the good work!

Elizabeth, Recently, after reading a few of your posts, my respect for you has grown several notches!

 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
You guys are gonna make me blush and stuff. Wow. It's great to know that some people here can actually see through my hard headedness and see that I am actually a nice, and somewhat intelligent person. :)