examples of speaking in tongues - need verification and explanations, please

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

who are the prophets and what are they saying because if God really is speaking in real time First Person to us today - I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HE IS SAYING TO THE CHURCH.

but, i MUST be allowed to test it.

my spiritual health depends upon it.
and my fidelity.

I guess that's what I'm trying to get at. What would you consider to be a valid test for a prophet, or possibly that the gift of prophecy still exists?

I imagine that if you went to a church in a non-English-speaking country, and you heard someone praising GOD in English, and you could verify from someone you trusted that that person definitely doesn't speak English, you might be inclined to believe that the gift of tongues still exists. Is that correct, or would a valid test for tongues be something different?

In like regard, what would be a valid test for a prophet? I want to know myself, and I'm also trying to determine if you have an open mind.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

What is a prophet?

e) of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God's authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men

f) of prophets that appeared in the apostolic age among Christians
1) they are associated with the apostles
2) they discerned and did what is best for the Christian cause, foretelling certain future events. (Acts 11:27)
3) in the religious assemblies of the Christians, they were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, having power to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, and stimulate, their hearers

Are we not all men and women filled with the Spirit of God via the gift of holy spirit? Does a prophet ALWAYS speak of FUTURE events? Can a man or woman of God hear from God and impart words of edification, encouragement, rebuke, etc.?

 

[weakness]

Mark 16
The Great Commission

14Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.

....

these things were said ABOUT those He personally sent out.

WE KNOW FROM SCRIPTURE THOSE SIGNS ACCOMPANIED THEM.
don't we?

"So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God."

Luke 24
44Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”


Acts 1:4
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

that was of course Pentecost.
it's in the PAST.

we read about it.

.........

do we need the message confirmed with signs - now that we have the Scriptures and The Holy Spirit testifies to us in them of everything concerning our salvation, and Christ?

do we need signs?

does anyone today require a sign?

Jesus didn't like that - at all.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

To the earlier post I think tongues are to unbelievers unless there is interp. The OT said they were a sign, and directed mostly at Jews. The gifts of the spirit were not only spoken of as signs but, as a measure of the gift of Christ. Christ in EACH of us. They are a part of Christ in each of us . How else could we walk, not of ourselves! but Christ in us . It is the only way the body and gospel works . Christ abides in us, his temple, He works through us ,his good works. I think most of us can tell the difference between the false fruit of false gifts and the fruits of the spirit . Love mercy,long suffering, gentleness forbearing one another humility,not boastful,not puffed up easily entreated , these are the fruits and nature of the administration of true spiritual gifts, except maybe a few good rebukes. I would talk of personal exsp but I am honestly a little afraid of being told how prideful I am or a boaster or whatever like Iv heard done with others .I know this is a poor excuse and that fear is a token of perdition, my flesh is weak... maybe sometime

 

[kenisyes]

i read all of your post Ken, but can't fairly comment on the parable, since it is also subjective, and is begging the question somewhat.

but SURE appreciate your integrity in telling how you discern what is authentic (as far as you know) and what is not.

love zone

I realize the subjectivity, but it does a fairly good job of telling how I perceive tongues. i do not recall seeing anyone ever explained it quite this way, so I thought it might be good to put it out there. Consider it a theory, if you like.

 

[kenisyes]

Sorry Ken,

I can't agree with you. Remember Satan can transform himself into an angel of light. People do all kinds of crazy things because it makes them feel uplifted and it seems exciting. (Just ask people after a great drug high or you have some get really pumped from some sports thingy) That in and of itself can not be the test to determine where it comes from,it's too subjective.

My sister was also a witch,and even though she was a witch,it didn't make my skin crawl. (I didn't find out she was a witch till later so....) Again subjective.

Agreed, but it does answer your question of how I feel it personally. Also to clarify, this is how I feel when I hear these types of tongues, not when I do them. I do not believe that anyone I know has ever had such feelings doing tongues. The people I deal with pray in tongues because God gave them the gift, Scripture says it is good, and they have tested their tongues long term for fruit as have I mine.

The only Scriptural answer is ultimately fruit, like I said this morning. If you accept my theory of tongues as outlined in the parable, then you will accept that you are wrong to ask the question of individual "phrases" in tongues, and you can see why I do not feel any need to evaluate those. It is the "groan" that underlies the tongues that must be discerned.

If it's any help, in one of the videos, I heard the man trying to teach tongues begin in mimicked tongues and then drop into authentic after a few "words".

 

[Abiding]

What is a prophet?

e) of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God's authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men

f) of prophets that appeared in the apostolic age among Christians
1) they are associated with the apostles
2) they discerned and did what is best for the Christian cause, foretelling certain future events. (Acts 11:27)
3) in the religious assemblies of the Christians, they were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, having power to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, and stimulate, their hearers

Are we not all men and women filled with the Spirit of God via the gift of holy spirit? Does a prophet ALWAYS speak of FUTURE events? Can a man or woman of God hear from God and impart words of edification, encouragement, rebuke, etc.?

many cant see tongues in acts 2 and tongues in corinth were different.

as well they cant see the distinction between a "prophet" and prophecy(the manifistation)

that and theological bias causes alot of confusion.

And on the other side there are those who thinks everybody in the first century spoke in tongues
which isnt true any more than they all did miracles, took up snakes etc.

 

[Abiding]

and on the other hand anyone who would make up a whole division
of the church because they speak in tongues to me is a nutcase
and clearly doesnt understand 1 cor 13

 

[Shiloah]

and on the other hand anyone who would make up a whole division
of the church because they speak in tongues to me is a nutcase
and clearly doesnt understand 1 cor 13

Now that I've never understood either. I do realize there are those that believe God given tongues is still applicable, but creating an entire separate denomination for the sole purpose of distinguishing themselves as people who speak in tongues I don't get.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

many cant see tongues in acts 2 and tongues in corinth were different.

as well they cant see the distinction between a "prophet" and prophecy(the manifistation)

that and theological bias causes alot of confusion.

And on the other side there are those who thinks everybody in the first century spoke in tongues
which isnt true any more than they all did miracles, took up snakes etc.

How do you see that they were "different"?

I can see that the tongues in Acts 2 were "different" than in Corinth because of the miraculous fact that the tongues God gave the disciples were the tongues of the people present to show His power working through these men via the gift of holy spirit by giving them the language of those present. The gift of the holy spirit is the same gift. . . the nine manifestations are the same. . . Corinthians is a book of correction addressed to the church at Corinth and to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. . .which would be us - to get them back on the right track when utilizing the manifestations.

In each recorded instance of people being born again in Acts, they spoke in tongues. Acts 10:45,46 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the holy spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us. . . 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the holy spirit came upon them; and they spake with tongues and prophesied. . .

Of course, if every instance of a person being born again and operating the manifestation of speaking in tongues were recorded. . .the Bible would be too big to even carry around with us!!! Just as if every thing which Jesus Christ did were recorded the world itself could not contain the books that should be written!!!!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

and on the other hand anyone who would make up a whole division
of the church because they speak in tongues to me is a nutcase
and clearly doesnt understand 1 cor 13

I agree that there should be no division regarding speaking in tongues within the church. . .Actually there should be no divisions at all within the church - for we are all one within the body of Christ. . .

 

[RickShafer]

The Bible stands as written.

The key is to rightly divide it using scripture tested against scripture.

"Out of the mouths of two or three witnesses let every word be established."

Every truth is said at least that many times, (I have found them mentioned many more)

Any one scripture that stands alone concerning a particular doctrine is being wrongly interpreted.

 

[RickShafer]

just because jewish kabbalists and such use this term which does not appear in the Bible, i wish we wouldn't use it.

The Shekinah is held by some to represent the feminine attributes of the presence of God (Shekinah being a feminine word in Hebrew), based especially on readings of the Talmud.[2]
wiki

The Glory of preincarnated God DOES appear in the Bible. (Shekinah)
Don't pass your ignorance off on a modern day zionist witchcraft movement known as the 'Kabbalah'.

 

[RickShafer]

oh...let's go really slow.

a) this guy has decided to sit down and be quiet like paul said, even though he's stoked.
b) he has the gift of a language he didn't learn, and is receiving revelation about the Wonderful Works of God in that language
c) he's not speaking to men because paul already said, be quiet unless someone there knows the language or translates.
d) he can speak to God - because the man knows what the revelation is, WHY? God gave it to him. the man and God know the thought is.
e) in his spirit, since he has obeyed the command to be quiet, he speaks MYSTERIES:

this word MYSTERIES is used many times by Paul.
in every single case it means something which was not previously made known but is being made known.
NEW REVELATION.
not bothering to fetch the passges, go find them (behold! i show you a mystery! - listen up, i'm about to tell you something we didn't know until NOW)

f) so he's being quiet, praying to God (they understand each other), but the understanding he has is UNFRUITFUL for OTHERS (since......they.....can.....not....understand....him). paul just told the person WHY - they don't understand.
so the gifted language guy's understanding is unfruitful FOR THEM. not for him! what's the use of an unfruitful gift FOR ANYONE? if its unfruitful for the gifted guy - what's the good of it?

does this work AT ALL, in modern Pentecostalism, speaking in your prayer language, that Paul would say your UNDERSTANDING IS UNFRUITFUL?

why kind of God is THAT? that gives a gift which is UNFRUITFUL? how can it even edify the tongue talker if it is UNFRUITFUL? on any level? what spirit is
g) it says absolutely nowhere in scripture that anyone is ever edified by something they don't understand.


PLEASE MAKE THESE TWO VERSES MAKE SENSE IN PENTECOSTAL ANGELIC UNKNOWN PRAYER LANGUAGE:

"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth,but my understanding is unfruitful."
"WHAT IS IT THEN? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also

huh? Paul...didn't you JUST say the tongue-talker's spirit would be being built up in someone even though his understanding is unfruitful (brain, thinking, understanding nil, empty, nothing)? does that edification of the spirit EVER come into the understanding part of the man? WHAT GOOD IS IT THEN? really...be honest.

then PAUL, why you say right after that pray with the angelic tongue prayer language and pray with understanding ALSO?

someone PLEASE tell me what this means in the angel tongue world?????

Again, you missed it.

You have totally built a house of untempered mortar on your own preconceived notions instead of what Paul said.
I can't argue with whats in your head.

Until you list Corinthians 14, starting with about verse two and continuing on until the Apostle stops addressing the gift of tongues, your words are but self delusional dross.

At least make enough of an effort to list the verses in order and make commentaries to each one.
That is what bible commentators usually do; - (That's what I did, that's what we always do as 'Bible Commentators').

Until you do that, (my beloved Carol King 'Zoney'); you are doing nothing more than building upon your own argument using your own ideas, instead of God's.

Please address Corinthians 14 with the actual scripture interposed by your commentary.

 

[RickShafer]

Not understanding...are you saying when you pray in tongues, your understanding of God is improved? 1 Cor 14:14
What do you mean by "slant"? are you saying you experience something that makes you change prayer direction?

It seems like your saying that your praying in tongues causes a domino effect...which would
mean that those who dont pray in tongues would not receive as much from their prayer.
Which if that were true....would bring up several biblical issues.

Yes, it does bring up 'several biblical issues'.
Such as using the gifts of the Spirit that were given to them singularly.
Which as listed in I Corinthians 12:7-10 includes faith. - (you got faith?)
Then Paul goes on to expound how they all work together, just as the parts of a material body work together. I Cor. 12:11-31.

I will first list them singularly as the apostle Paul has:
[SUP]
7 [/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:




Now I will go on (as the apostle has), to show how they all work together in the same body(spiritually Jesus Christ's) :

(NASB) [SUP]11 [/SUP]But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For [SUP][a][/SUP]by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For the body is not one member, but many. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason [SUP][b][/SUP]any the less a part of the body. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason [SUP][c][/SUP]any the less a part of the body. [SUP]17 [/SUP]If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? [SUP]18 [/SUP]But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. [SUP]19 [/SUP]If they were all one member, where would the body be? [SUP]20 [/SUP]But now there are many members, but one body. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]On the contrary, [SUP][d][/SUP]it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; [SUP]23 [/SUP]and those members of the body which we [SUP][e][/SUP]deem less honorable, [SUP][f][/SUP]on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, [SUP]24 [/SUP]whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, [SUP]25 [/SUP]so that there may be no [SUP][g][/SUP]division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is [SUP][h][/SUP]honored, all the members rejoice with it.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And God has [SUP][i][/SUP]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then [SUP][j][/SUP]miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. [SUP]29 [/SUP]All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [SUP][k][/SUP]miracles, are they? [SUP]30 [/SUP]All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? [SUP]31 [/SUP]But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
And I show you a still more excellent way.

To desire the greater gifts does not mean to prohibit some. - "Forbid not tongues" (1 Cor. 14:39)
You got the gift of faith?
Well good for you.
- Is that a great one to be desired? So much greater than tongues?
- like the straightened neck you say faith is to tongues as the neck is to the foot. (As stiff as that neck is) - read verses 21-23 above.

 

[notuptome]

What is a prophet?

e) of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God's authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men

f) of prophets that appeared in the apostolic age among Christians
1) they are associated with the apostles
2) they discerned and did what is best for the Christian cause, foretelling certain future events. (Acts 11:27)
3) in the religious assemblies of the Christians, they were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, having power to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, and stimulate, their hearers

Are we not all men and women filled with the Spirit of God via the gift of holy spirit? Does a prophet ALWAYS speak of FUTURE events? Can a man or woman of God hear from God and impart words of edification, encouragement, rebuke, etc.?

How many prophets in the OT were gentile? How many were women?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

1 Cor 12:29-31, 13:1-4 Paul speaks to the Corinthian believers and presents an interesting case. Examination of what he said leads one to believe that he is using hyperbole when he speaks of angel tongues, understanding all mysteries, all knowledge, all faith and all his goods to feed the poor. Our faith is not a blind faith it is a faith of understanding.
Prophets being subject to the prophets is interesting. Paul is saying that those who prophesy will always prophecy consistent with the prophecy of the OT prophets. Nothing coming from God will contradict what God has said in the past.
For tongues to operate in the modern church unsaved Jews would need to be present in the assembly. That is in addition to the other rules of order in the assembly. You know interpreters and limited speakers. Sign gifts are not for gentiles but for Jews. Gentiles seek wisdom not signs.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickShafer]

1 Cor 12:29-31, 13:1-4 Paul speaks to the Corinthian believers and presents an interesting case. Examination of what he said leads one to believe that he is using hyperbole when he speaks of angel tongues, understanding all mysteries, all knowledge, all faith and all his goods to feed the poor. Our faith is not a blind faith it is a faith of understanding.
Prophets being subject to the prophets is interesting. Paul is saying that those who prophesy will always prophecy consistent with the prophecy of the OT prophets. Nothing coming from God will contradict what God has said in the past.
For tongues to operate in the modern church unsaved Jews would need to be present in the assembly. That is in addition to the other rules of order in the assembly. You know interpreters and limited speakers. Sign gifts are not for gentiles but for Jews. Gentiles seek wisdom not signs.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Nonsense.
And frank nonsense at that.
(I don't mean to be mean).

 

[notuptome]

Nonsense.
And frank nonsense at that.
(I don't mean to be mean).

Way to step up and provide a well reasoned biblical refutation. Frankly the fact you don't like it doesn't diminish it's validity. No malice intended just a love for God's truth delivered to the brethren.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickShafer]

Way to step up and provide a well reasoned biblical refutation. Frankly the fact you don't like it doesn't diminish it's validity. No malice intended just a love for God's truth delivered to the brethren.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

When you state in writing things like this:

"For tongues to operate in the modern church unsaved Jews would need to be present in the assembly. That is in addition to the other rules of order in the assembly. You know interpreters and limited speakers. Sign gifts are not for gentiles but for Jews. Gentiles seek wisdom not signs."



Overlooking the actual inspiration given to the apostle in I Corinthians chapters 12 and 14; it was hard for me to let it pass.

You need to read the actual letters of the apostle and not simply recite a denominational doctrine.

 

[notuptome]

When you state in writing things like this:

"For tongues to operate in the modern church unsaved Jews would need to be present in the assembly. That is in addition to the other rules of order in the assembly. You know interpreters and limited speakers. Sign gifts are not for gentiles but for Jews. Gentiles seek wisdom not signs."



Overlooking the actual inspiration given to the apostle in I Corinthians chapters 12 and 14; it was hard for me to let it pass.

You need to read the actual letters of the apostle and not simply recite a denominational doctrine.

Well I don't have the actual letters that Paul wrote so the English translations will need to suffice and I trust they are reasonably accurate.
The whole of Paul's writing to the church at Corinth was one of correction in any language. What I wrote I wrote based on the passages to which you refer me.
Do not confuse biblical doctrine with denominational doctrine. I would encourage you to not trust emotion and feeling at the expense of sound biblical doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger