Exposing!! The Corrupt Counterfeit (NIV) Bible, Verses That Have Been Tamped With!!

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I certainly know others don't share my belief. And yes, sometimes reasoning with facts does not work. Ultimately, it is faith. I have faith that God has perfectly preserved His words for us today in the KJV. Most, if not all others believe that God has not perfectly preserved His words anywhere and there is no single Bible that can be trusted in its entirety.
That's what you think. I know that God has preserved His words. I don't, however, believe that He has preserved them in an English translation that didn't exist for some 1550 years after the last book was written. Because my position differs from your position, you feel compelled to attack mine. I don't attack your position; I just refute the silly arguments you use to defend it.

The issue is of utmost importance to me. I will continue to defend my position.
Fine. When someone attacks your position, then feel free to defend. I don't see you doing that though. Rather, I see you posting bad arguments without provocation and jabs at others who see things differently. Frankly, it all seems very insecure.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,353
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God never said that He would preserve His word in every language, only that His words would be preserved. The gospel was commanded to be preached in all the world.

God did not give His “originals” in every language, but He did allow the apostles to preach the gospel in different languages. Translating the KJV into different languages is good, but I would not call those translations the word of God.
Then you reject what the KJV translators said about their own work, and you're essentially saying that the KJV is not the word of God either.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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Is this an important omission? Or no big deal?

KJV Mark 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

NIV Mark 10:24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!”
Indeed,

it's only 'omission' if it really is in Mark's original letter.

here's the NET Bible notes:

tc Most mss (A C D Θ f1, 13 28 565 2427 𝔐 lat sy) have here “for those who trust in riches” (τοὺς πεποιθότας ἐπὶ [τοῖς] χρήμασιν, tous pepoithotas epi [tois] chrēmasin); W has πλούσιον (plousion) later in the verse, producing the same general modification on the dominical saying (“how hard it is for the rich to enter …”). But such qualifications on the Lord’s otherwise harsh and absolute statements are natural scribal expansions, intended to soften the dictum. Further, the earliest and best witnesses, along with a few others (א B Δ Ψ sa), lack any such qualifications. That W lacks the longer expansion and only has πλούσιον suggests that its archetype agreed with א B here; its voice should be heard with theirs. Thus, both on external and internal grounds, the shorter reading is preferred.
i do not agree that all translations made after 1611 are made with evil intent.
i do not agree with translations like 'NLT' etc that set aside accuracy for interpretive readability. what's important to me is accuracy. i do not have the years of educational background and scholarship it takes to really make reasoned judgements about textual criticism, and i do not trust at all the 'KJV-only' resources that @WithinReason is spamming this thread with -- these have clear and obvious bias.


i'd just like to put that, the NIV, ESV, NASB, HCB etc were not made with nefarious intent. they were made with the intent of integrating the advances in scholarship and the many additional manuscript evidences that have become available in the 400 years since the KJV was made, and with the intent of bringing the translation into line with the natural changes in the vocabulary & usage of the common English language. both of these are things which the KJV translating body encouraged ((and themselves did in their own time)) in the 1611 preface.
The actual evidence, that is not merely one-sided (presenting only a half-truth):

Mark 10:24

The NIV and NWT follow the same pattern:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10:24&version=NIV

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/mark/10/#v41010024

The words do not occur in the following corrupted texts:

Aleph (Sinaiticus), B (Vaticanus), Delta, Psi, pc (no cursives cited by N/A, UBS), k, sa, bo-mss​

The extant literature which has the phrase:

"... A, C, D, E, F, G, H, K, M, N, S, U, V, X, Y
Gamma, Theta, Pi, Sigma, Phi, Omega

Cursives: MAJORITY
Old Latin: (a*), aur, b, d, f, ff2, g(1),2 , l, q
Syriac: Pes.hitta, Sinaitican, Harclean
Coptic: Bohairic
Gothic, Armenian, Ethiopic


... Also extant in 047, 055, 0133?, 0211?, 0257 ..." - A Closer Look: Early Manuscripts & The A.V.; by Jack Moorman, page 81
Additionally:

"... TAITAN, Diatessaron (I 10:87) ..." - Early Church Fathers And The Authorized Version, by Jack Moorman, page 43
Additionally:
"... Ruckman (54) p 17, states that the words are found in all four families of manuscripts. Berry's Greek text supports this passage. ..." - http://ecclesia.org/truth/manuscript_evidence.html

Additionally:

"... All these words - "for them that trust in riches" - are found in the majority of all texts, including the Old Latin a, aur, b, d, f, ff2, l, q, A, C, D, plus at least 21 other uncial copies, the Syriac Peshitta, Harkelian, Coptic Boharic, Gothic, Armenian, Georgian and Ethiopian ancient versions. ..." - https://brandplucked.webs.com/mark1024trustinriches.htm
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,092
3,682
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That's what you think. I know that God has preserved His words. I don't, however, believe that He has preserved them in an English translation that didn't exist for some 1550 years after the last book was written. Because my position differs from your position, you feel compelled to attack mine. I don't attack your position; I just refute the silly arguments you use to defend it.


Fine. When someone attacks your position, then feel free to defend. I don't see you doing that though. Rather, I see you posting bad arguments without provocation and jabs at others who see things differently. Frankly, it all seems very insecure.
No attacks brother. That’s not my style.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
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Then you reject what the KJV translators said about their own work
Advice. Do not presume the position of others for them, when those said persons have not said what you intimate they did. It makes you look arrogant, as if you know what they think in their minds, when you know no such thing.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,353
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Straw man. Even undefined at that. Simply name calling. It's rather simple really. I produce evidence, and you produced 'whining'.
It's not a straw man at all. Perhaps you need to read up on the fallacies before using the terms.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
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It's not a straw man at all. Perhaps you need to read up on the fallacies before using the terms.
It is a straw man, to use the phrase 'KJVO' and even undefined at that. Therefore, do not, again, presume to define my position for me, and allow me to do that in all charity (1 Cor. 13), Thank you. You and 'post' are in error about my position, and the position of the sources I have cited.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,353
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Advice. Do not presume the position of others for them, when those said persons have not said what you intimate they did. It makes you look arrogant, as if you know what they think in their minds, when you know no such thing.
Advice: read the thread to which I responded before posting your presumptuous comments.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
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If God allows corrupt Bibles to be published, how would a person in different times in history know which Bible was the uncorrupted one?
Fair enough question. Isaiah 8:20, John 10:35 are two good places to begin with.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;​

A characteristic of the word of God is just identified. Do you see what it is?

(and ps, Yes the anti-christ, knows how to counterfeit miracles, and so multiply 'bread' of his own)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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Do you believe God has perfectly preserved His words for us today?
The rationalistic critics (including Westcott & Hort or W&H) did NOT believe that God had perfectly preserved his written Word over the centuries. Indeed they falsely and blatantly claimed that the traditional Greek text had been corrupted (without a shred of evidence) and that the handful of Gnostic corruptions they discovered in the 19th century -- Aleph, A, B, C, D and a few others -- represented the true text.

F.H.A. Scrivener was the leading textual scholar of the 19th century, and indeed wrote the textbook on textual criticism. He totally rejected the claims of Westcot & Hort (and their co-conspirators). Dean John Willam Burgon, another outstanding textual scholar of the 19th century, also exposed their hoax and proved from personally collating the Gospels, that Vaticanus and Sinaiticus were THE MOST CORRUPT Greek manuscripts in existence. Their age was attributed to the fact that they had been rejected by Christians and cast aside and therefore survived. Indeed Sinaiticus was discovered by Tischendorf in A BASKET OF KINDLING in the monastery on Mount Sinai!

However, modern textual scholars ignored Burgon, Scrivener, Hoskier, etc. and promoted the false idea of W & H that the most corrupt manuscripts were the best! Thus they all copied W & H and all critical editions of the Greek text (including Nestle, Nestle-Aland, the United Bible Society, etc.) are slavish reproductions of the Greek text of W &H. This is the text of ALL MODERN BIBLE VERSIONS (RV. RSV. ASV. NASV, NIV, ESV, etc.)

There is not a single modern version (including the NKJV) that can be trusted. They have all been corrupted. And a quick glance at Acts 8: 36-38 is sufficient to show how serious the corruption is. Verse 37 has been placed in square brackets or omitted altogether. And without that verse the passage makes absolutely no sense. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

KJV
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.


ESV
36
And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
THERE IS NO VERSE 37 HERE!
38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,710
13,519
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I have presented mss evidence, and you have presented? Which of us is truly spamming? It is amazing that you call mss evidence "spamming", while your own posts, which have very little such documentary mss evidence, is left unnoticed in your identification of "spamming".
i pointed out how you were in disobedience to Christ to swear an oath, and wrong to try to justify your swearing by twisting scripture. post #53
instead of acknowledging your error, you buried the exchange with more spam.


before this, i tried to direct the conversation toward Christ. to which you responded KJV = Christ, and spammed some more.

and afterwards, i brought up the nature of language itself as an imprecise tool for communicating concepts, for discussion.

thanks for the reply.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,353
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The rationalistic critics (including Westcott & Hort or W&H) did NOT believe that God had perfectly preserved his written Word over the centuries. Indeed they falsely and blatantly claimed that the traditional Greek text had been corrupted (without a shred of evidence) and that the handful of Gnostic corruptions they discovered in the 19th century -- Aleph, A, B, C, D and a few others -- represented the true text.

F.H.A. Scrivener was the leading textual scholar of the 19th century, and indeed wrote the textbook on textual criticism. He totally rejected the claims of Westcot & Hort (and their co-conspirators). Dean John Willam Burgon, another outstanding textual scholar of the 19th century, also exposed their hoax and proved from personally collating the Gospels, that Vaticanus and Sinaiticus were THE MOST CORRUPT Greek manuscripts in existence. Their age was attributed to the fact that they had been rejected by Christians and cast aside and therefore survived. Indeed Sinaiticus was discovered by Tischendorf in A BASKET OF KINDLING in the monastery on Mount Sinai!

However, modern textual scholars ignored Burgon, Scrivener, Hoskier, etc. and promoted the false idea of W & H that the most corrupt manuscripts were the best! Thus they all copied W & H and all critical editions of the Greek text (including Nestle, Nestle-Aland, the United Bible Society, etc.) are slavish reproductions of the Greek text of W &H. This is the text of ALL MODERN BIBLE VERSIONS (RV. RSV. ASV. NASV, NIV, ESV, etc.)

There is not a single modern version (including the NKJV) that can be trusted. They have all been corrupted. And a quick glance at Acts 8: 36-38 is sufficient to show how serious the corruption is. Verse 37 has been placed in square brackets or omitted altogether. And without that verse the passage makes absolutely no sense. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

KJV
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.


ESV
36
And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
THERE IS NO VERSE 37 HERE!
38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Your idea of "absolutely no sense" is only your opinion. The ESV makes sense to me, and it is only one of many translations. This is typical KJV-o propaganda: find one translation that differs, and smear all of them with the same brush.

Maybe you should endeavour to show the same integrity as you see in Burgon and Scrivener.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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No, the NIV does not remove thousands of words, phrases, and entire verses.
Yes it does, as shown by the mss evidence and internal evidence of the NIV (just as its 'brother' the NWT):

Not all ancient manuscripts containing what we refer to as the modern Bible are the same. Some have "and fasting" while others don't. Some contain books that are now regarded as inauthentic. Bible scholars tend to take the earliest known manuscripts as closest to the original writing.

So many newer versions of the Bible like the NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, and many more omit "and fasting" because it's regarded as a later edition to Bible. That's their best guess based off of the surviving copies of New Testament books that have been discovered.
You are in error in regards "and fasting", see the provided mss evidence below, given well before you made your response.

Matthew 17:21 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194783

Mark 9:29 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194787

In general 1 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194793

In general 2 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194794

In general 3 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194796

In general 4 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194797

Matthew 18:11 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194810

Matthew 23:14 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194814

Mark 7:16 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194816

Mark 9:44 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194820

Mark 9:46 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194833

Mark 11:26 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-2#post-4194865

Mark 15:28 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-2#post-4194887

Mark 16:9-20 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-2#post-4194901

Luke 1:28 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-3#post-4195060

Luke 17:36 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-3#post-4195066

Luke 23:17 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-3#post-4195071

John 5:4 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-4#post-4195079

John 7:53-8:11 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-4#post-4195090

Acts 8:37 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-6#post-4196225

Acts 15:34 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-6#post-4196239

Acts 24:6-8 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-6#post-4196243

Contradictions in 1 Samuel 13:1 and Acts 13:21 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-6#post-4196249

Contradictions in John 7:8-10 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-6#post-4196251

Butchered translation in Galatians 5:12 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-7#post-4196257

Mark 10:24 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-9#post-4196965

...and more to come.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,353
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Yes it does, as shown by the mss evidence and internal evidence of the NIV (just as its 'brother' the NWT):

You are in error in regards "and fasting", see the provided mss evidence below, given well before you made your response.

Matthew 17:21 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194783

Mark 9:29 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194787

In general 1 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194793

In general 2 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194794

In general 3 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194796

In general 4 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194797

Matthew 18:11 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194810

Matthew 23:14 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194814

Mark 7:16 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194816

Mark 9:44 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194820

Mark 9:46 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...at-have-been-tamped-with.190967/#post-4194833

Mark 11:26 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-2#post-4194865

Mark 15:28 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-2#post-4194887

Mark 16:9-20 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-2#post-4194901

Luke 1:28 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-3#post-4195060

Luke 17:36 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-3#post-4195066

Luke 23:17 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-3#post-4195071

John 5:4 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-4#post-4195079

John 7:53-8:11 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-4#post-4195090

Acts 8:37 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-6#post-4196225

Acts 15:34 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-6#post-4196239

Acts 24:6-8 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-6#post-4196243

Contradictions in 1 Samuel 13:1 and Acts 13:21 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-6#post-4196249

Contradictions in John 7:8-10 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-6#post-4196251

Butchered translation in Galatians 5:12 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-7#post-4196257

Mark 10:24 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-9#post-4196965

...and more to come.
There is a deep and fatal flaw in your logic.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
136
43
There is a deep and fatal flaw in your logic.
Merely aprioric, and baseless in evidence. It is simply accusation, without substantial foundation.

Let's look at a specific example.

Mark 16:9-20 - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...e-been-tamped-with.190967/page-2#post-4194901

What evidence suggests that Mark 16:9-20 is not inspired of God text, and therefore should not be present in the preserved word of God that we can hold in our hands today? The NIV does not contain these words - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16:9&version=NIV

Why does the NIV choose to not include this passage? What mss evidence and logical thought process was used to leave it out. Please explain, I will listen to your explanation very carefully and weight it on its own merits.