Faith is our righteousness - Christ is our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins

[PeterJens]

Got to say, missing the difference to faith counted as righteousness and righteousness of Jesus counting his sacrifice as worthy for all. Maybe this distinction is too much for some, clearly that is true.

If one accepts Jesus's righteousness is given as a gift to us, then it does not matter what we do. If you hold that once you have faith you are counted as perfect before God, then you can enter heaven with no change.

The trouble with certain ways of discussing such an issue, just making fun is not an answer. I have never held to imputed righteousness to us, because people do not teach it from scripture, it only seems to come up when talking calvanism.

We were talking about sin before, but all sin was forgiven through the cross, so righteousness was not an issue at all.
I find that interesting that those believers did not think imputed righteousness was relevant. So I wonder who actually holds to this doctrine and why?

 

[FreeNChrist]

so if my neighbor who is an atheist behaves well, he has proof of faith?

whaa?

Right. If it's just about behavior, most anyone can be trained to behave.

 

[PeterJens]

Its really not that hard to understand......

1 John 2:19

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us"

John is talking about people who deny that Christ came in the flesh etc. Not all heresies or problems come in this way.
EG for instance condemns his fathers church and all the people there, me and many others who I would call believers.

There comes a point where you say people have chosen this position, and rejected all others, so it cannot be about faith but something personal to themselves. They maybe saved but just lost the plot along the way.

 

[Grace777x70]

Works-salvationists are into behavior modification. Christ brings us an exchanged life..

..massive difference although outwardly they can "appear" to be similar. Religion is a crafty creature and very deceptive. It can pose as "an angel of light and it has it's own ministers of righteousness". But it is their righteousness by doing good works.

Right. If it's just about behavior, most anyone can be trained to behave.

 

[FreeNChrist]

John is talking about people who deny that Christ came in the flesh etc. Not all heresies or problems come in this way.
EG for instance condemns his fathers church and all the people there, me and many others who I would call believers.

There comes a point where you say people have chosen this position, and rejected all others, so it cannot be about faith but something personal to themselves. They maybe saved but just lost the plot along the way.

You need to stop offering your own peculiar commentary and start listening to those who actually understand scripture and who are trying to help you.

 

[PeterJens]

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
Matt 7:24-27

Jesus believed in changed behaviour because of choice.

Now if Jesus is into this I am into this because I follow Jesus. Jesus did not say I will change you being so will just do these things automatically by some mystical intervention. He said because you love me, you will do these things and I will love you too.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Works-salvationists are into behavior modification. Christ brings us an exchanged life..

..massive difference although outwardly they can "appear" to be similar. Religion is a crafty creature and very deceptive. It can pose as "an angel of light and it has it's own ministers of righteousness". But it is their righteousness by doing good works.

Thats another Christianity is not.

Christianity is not a behavior modification program.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
Matt 7:24-27

Jesus believed in changed behaviour because of choice.

Now if Jesus is into this I am into this because I follow Jesus. Jesus did not say I will change you being so will just do these things automatically by some mystical intervention. He said because you love me, you will do these things and I will love you too.

The difference is that what you offer is a pseudo-righteousness and holiness based on moralistic performance and behavior modification through the legalistic keeping of rules and regulation. In contrast with what God gives, which is holiness and righteousness both in spiritual condition and behavioral expression, by the presence and activity of Jesus. Everything in the Christian life is to be derived from Christ by the receptivity of faith, in order to bear (not produce) the fruit of God's character and activity in our behavior.

Anything else is but dead foolish human effort.

 

[PeterJens]

You need to stop offering your own peculiar commentary and start listening to those who actually understand scripture and who are trying to help you.

Got to laugh. My commentary is simple run of the mill christian theology. It is you who are peculiar.
But I wonder if you understand why you think what I am saying is perculiar. I am just quoting scripture. I am also just making observations about people I know and what has happened to them. This is repeated throughout the christian world.

I cannot agree with something because you do, because this is what it means to follow Christ. I am obeying the simple words of Jesus and the apostles. It is a testimony against you if this appears as peculiar, because that means you have strayed far from the gospel. Ofcourse EG will claim it shows I have strayed, but this does not hold if what I am saying is merely what the bible says.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Got to laugh. My commentary is simple run of the mill christian theology. It is you who are peculiar.
But I wonder if you understand why you think what I am saying is perculiar. I am just quoting scripture. I am also just making observations about people I know and what has happened to them. This is repeated throughout the christian world.

I cannot agree with something because you do, because this is what it means to follow Christ. I am obeying the simple words of Jesus and the apostles. It is a testimony against you if this appears as peculiar, because that means you have strayed far from the gospel. Ofcourse EG will claim it shows I have strayed, but this does not hold if what I am saying is merely what the bible says.

Your commentary is nothing but Pelagian religious humanism.

 

[PeterJens]

The difference is that what you offer is a pseudo-righteousness and holiness based on moralistic performance and behavior modification through the legalistic keeping of rules and regulation. In contrast with what God gives, which is holiness and righteousness both in spiritual condition and behavioral expression, by the presence and activity of Jesus. Everything in the Christian life is to be derived from Christ by the receptivity of faith, in order to bear (not produce) the fruit of God's character and activity in our behavior.

Anything else is but dead foolish human effort.

‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
Matt 6:9-13

How do you forgive people who have upset you? I just forgive them before the Lord.
But I choose to do this, and am aware how easily I hold bad feelings against individuals without realising it.
I do not see this as legalism, or moralistic or pseudo righteousness, but as an expression of my failure and forgiving others their failures. So all you classification does not speak to me at all.

 

[FreeNChrist]

‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
Matt 6:9-13

How do you forgive people who have upset you? I just forgive them before the Lord.
But I choose to do this, and am aware how easily I hold bad feelings against individuals without realising it.
I do not see this as legalism, or moralistic or pseudo righteousness, but as an expression of my failure and forgiving others their failures.

So all you classification does not speak to me at all.

And there it is. No one speaks to you, even though everyone is. Watch your step, it's a long way down I hear.

 

[Grace777x70]

Paul told us to beware of humanistic philosophy and not live according to Christ alone.

Colossians 2:6-8 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
[SUP]8[/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Your commentary is nothing but Pelagian religious humanism.

 

[PeterJens]

Your commentary is nothing but Pelagian religious humanism.

I understand from a deeply calvanistic theology, you reject these ideas, because of original sin, imputed righteousness etc.
At least you know where you stand, I can respect that. I am just learning the words that match where I am experientially and theologically. I do not expect you to agree with me, but at least we can be open enough to have a position.

It is also obvious to me Pelagius was probably right about Augustine and his gnostic views. Now I am not on the side of righteousness outside Christ, but I do believe in free will. Humanism is the belief that human biology has a part to play in the life of the believer, which I would hold to. It is also obvious you regard this with a very negative outlook.

I did not know the Calvin and Luther killed a lot of anabaptists who theologically I am closer to, so I know this enmity has a deep history, but bless you and may the Lord love you as much as he has loved me.

 

[PeterJens]

And there it is. No one speaks to you, even though everyone is. Watch your step, it's a long way down I hear.

In all honesty I am not putting difficult points to you. I wonder how deep your faith actually goes. I would die for my outlook and what God has done in my life. I do not regard this as a game or joke. It is also sad you regard someone who just takes Jesus at his word is lost. I would suggest it is theology and doctrine which have blinded you to the simplicity of forgiveness and love.

 

[ember]

Your commentary is nothing but Pelagian religious humanism.

it has taken awhile and I knew several here were really preaching 'another gospel' and I have been pretty handily attacked
by certain posters (I'm over it...just could not understand why at the time) and now it makes sense...if attacking makes sense

I know what I believe...others here know what I believe and months back I responded to something and have been in the hot seat ever since...now I know why

I disagree with the 'another gospel' though to be sure, at the time I did not know what it was but have since been educated and have done my own research

just relieved that it has finally had its true identity uncovered

no prejudice to anyone.....it is what it is

 

[FreeNChrist]

I understand from a deeply calvanistic theology, you reject these ideas, because of original sin, imputed righteousness etc.
At least you know where you stand, I can respect that. I am just learning the words that match where I am experientially and theologically. I do not expect you to agree with me, but at least we can be open enough to have a position.

It is also obvious to me Pelagius was probably right about Augustine and his gnostic views. Now I am not on the side of righteousness outside Christ, but I do believe in free will. Humanism is the belief that human biology has a part to play in the life of the believer, which I would hold to. It is also obvious you regard this with a very negative outlook.

I did not know the Calvin and Luther killed a lot of anabaptists who theologically I am closer to, so I know this enmity has a deep history, but bless you and may the Lord love you as much as he has loved me.

Trying to label me a Calvinist does nothing to lessen the reality or severity of your heretical beliefs.

 

[PeterJens]

But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
1 Tim 6:11-12

These are the things you are to teach and insist on. If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
1 Tim 6:2-10

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Peter 2:1

We have a simple problem. Many grow among us, appear like us yet wander off, follow other things and ways.
I cannot say were they born of God, could they lead the elect astray?

All I can say is we need to test the teaching and walk in love. There appears no value in testing people as to their faith or position, other than to discuss and look at what scripture teaches and how we can walk.

I do not know why people walk away, change their doctrines, preach heresy, fall into adultery, corruption, lying etc. but they do all the time. For some it is stumbling, for others they never return.

I am not sure I can say more, God gives His promises to His people, but until that day we will only know at a distance who is called. But I think that is best, because many take a long time to work through issues in their souls before they get it sorted.

What you can know for a fact is this. The lord knows who are his, and who are not his.

His children will never walk away. If they walk away, they were never his..

 

[ember]

ps:

I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian so I don't have a dog in that fight

I'm just your basic every day Bible believing Christ follower but I can smell a funny doctrine from far away even if I can't put my finger on it right away